Mysterious Group Buys Building Next to Ground Zero For Mosque

[Agent 007]

So the land of "Freedom of Religion" now is supposed to suspend the free exercise of religion? So whats next, no churchs next to the abortion clinics that Christian extremest bombed. Religious fanatics carried out the attacks on 9/11/01 not Islam as a whole. Freedom of Religion spreads to Muslims as well as Christians (and the rest of the world).

If we want to crack down on something how about Hezbollah, they get the majority of there funding from interstate cigarette sales (thats interstate, as in within the USA). Lets go after the terrorists not the peaceful Muslims who arnt hurting anyone. Or should we ban all Catholic Churches for there terrorism of the Protestants over in the old world? Maybe ban all Christian churches because a few nut jobs bomb abortion clinics? Once you start banning religious places its a massive pandoras box and it leads towards a black hole. Israel is a Jewish country, and they still allow Mosques. If anyone had a right to ban the Muslims its Israel, and yet they don't.


*disclaimer* Im a born again Christian and am not defending Islam or other religions, just that they have a right to worship just as much as the Christians. Its kinda what America is all about, as in founding fathers intent.

I don't think anyone on this thread called for a ban on religion. It is, however, naive and foolish to not keep an eye on people who are building a monument to the religion whose tenets were the fuel for one of the worst atrocities this nation has ever experienced...right next to where that atrocity took place.

Let them build their building. But let's not pretend that this is not a direct, vile slap in the face to our nation. The tenets of islam call for the slaughter of innocents. How someone can subscribe to this religion and be considered "peaceful" is beyond me. Inactive, perhaps...but certainly not peaceful.

Show me where any other major religion preaches for their followers to subjugate or kill non-believers, and I'll lend some credence to your comparison. Otherwise, your comparison falls flat.

 

[techres]

Show me where any other major religion preaches for their followers to subjugate or kill non-believers, and I'll lend some credence to your comparison. Otherwise, your comparison falls flat.

You mean modern religions, or just religions? Cause lines like "suffer not a witch to live" got a bunch of folks dead and that is not a Koranic line.

The vast majority of Jews who were killed for their faith, even if you subtract out Holocaust deaths, died at the hands a religion other than Islam. And it wasn't all that long ago in the timeline of history.

Religion tends to be perfect, except when implemented by imperfect humans. Too bad that is always the way it is...

Islam has it's issues. But it is far from unique, and it's adherents far from one mass of suicide bombers.

 

[tryingtosurvive03]

Liberalism

We take freedom from others and we lose some too.Do I feel it's right ? NO But if we stop this it will effect others that it should not.I agree with the other guy,I hope the wiring is bad.lol

 

[evansvillethompsongunner]

You mean modern religions, or just religions? Cause lines like "suffer not a witch to live" got a bunch of folks dead and that is not a Koranic line.

The vast majority of Jews who were killed for their faith, even if you subtract out Holocaust deaths, died at the hands a religion other than Islam. And it wasn't all that long ago in the timeline of history.

Religion tends to be perfect, except when implemented by imperfect humans. Too bad that is always the way it is...

Islam has it's issues. But it is far from unique, and it's adherents far from one mass of suicide bombers.

Then show me the Christian suicide bombers, if Islam is not unique in its violence. Where are the Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers? Where are the Jewish suicide bombers?

Yes, Christianity used to be quite violent, but it underwent severe moderation... violence in Christendom today is neither popular dogma nor widespread - particularly not as it is in the Muslim world.

Violence is not unique to any one religion, certainly not - but the continued dogmatic practice of major violence against civilians is limited to but one religion in the world today, yes sir, just one. Three guesses as to its name...

 

[Thumper]

I'll bet obama adds this to the stimulas program.

 

[techres]

Then show me the Christian suicide bombers, if Islam is not unique in its violence. Where are the Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers? Where are the Jewish suicide bombers?

Yes, Christianity used to be quite violent, but it underwent severe moderation... violence in Christendom today is neither popular dogma nor widespread - particularly not as it is in the Muslim world.

Violence is not unique to any one religion, certainly not - but the continued dogmatic practice of major violence against civilians is limited to but one religion in the world today, yes sir, just one. Three guesses as to its name...

Ah! But you skipped right over the problem and the solution. Moderation. I would modify that to include Modernization. And that is not only possible, but is happening with those in the modern part of the world.

The moderation and modern nature of each religion is based on it's place in history not lines pulled from it's core text. Islam has not calmed down yet, and needs to be stopped in those places where it's adherents are committing crimes against man and law. But that is completely different than saying "Islam is unique in violence. Just look at the Koran!"

That is not only incorrect historically, but is also a useless path to go down in the modern world. It actually falls into the same kind of tribal thinking that we need to get many Muslims out of.

As for modern suicide bombers? Or school bombers? Yes, there have been Jewish settlers who went down this path and failed (the truck bomb failed to detonate). Don't even get started no the Christians in the Balkans wars of the 90's. Are there violent HIndu's? Oh, very much so - read up on hindu cleansing of Muslim areas in India in the 90's.

There is plenty of religious blood spilled outside of Islam. That is not to say that Muslims world wide are not at the top of a violence list, but let's not pretend they are alone and that it is unique to their faith or religious text.

 

[.30 Cal Al]

Hi

My mind isn't so open that my brain falls out of my head. It's quite secure up there although, at times, it does slosh around some.

I figure that everyone gets one free shot, but the success or failure of that shot should be assessed on an individual basis and not assigned to the current most easily identifiable block-voting demographic involved.

American Liberty means... well... should mean, anyhow... that each and every individual legal occupant of the U.S.A. should be allowed to be just as big a jacka*s as any other, and not be forced to carry around the presupposition of guilt... or of innocence... of an entire block-voting demographic. Be it Christians, whites, blacks, Muslims, gun collectors, target shooters, snake handler churches, people who buy single-use $130 panties, or NASCAR enthusiasts, everyone gets to do whatever makes them happy... within the law.

(...even though that whole, "single-use $130 panties," thing has me mystified... and totally freaked out.)

If you screw it up, you get things like supervised visitation, orange jumpsuits, and long visits with your court-appointed lawyer during the appeal process.

I also think that the death penalty does, indeed, have one undeniable and useful benefit: It absolutely prevents recidivism. I'm very strongly against allowing people to make certain mistakes a second time.

So, I say let people be and do anything they want to within the law. If they violate the law, then shut 'em down, and shut 'em down with all the force suitable to the offense.

I quite agree that building a mosque next to Ground Zero is in questionable taste.

When has questionable taste stopped an American from doing stuff?

 

[evansvillethompsongunner]

Ah! But you skipped right over the problem and the solution. Moderation. I would modify that to include Modernization. And that is not only possible, but is happening with those in the modern part of the world.

The moderation and modern nature of each religion is based on it's place in history not lines pulled from it's core text. Islam has not calmed down yet, and needs to be stopped in those places where it's adherents are committing crimes against man and law. But that is completely different than saying "Islam is unique in violence. Just look at the Koran!"

That is not only incorrect historically, but is also a useless path to go down in the modern world. It actually falls into the same kind of tribal thinking that we need to get many Muslims out of.

As for modern suicide bombers? Or school bombers? Yes, there have been Jewish settlers who went down this path and failed (the truck bomb failed to detonate). Don't even get started no the Christians in the Balkans wars of the 90's. Are there violent HIndu's? Oh, very much so - read up on hindu cleansing of Muslim areas in India in the 90's.

There is plenty of religious blood spilled outside of Islam. That is not to say that Muslims world wide are not at the top of a violence list, but let's not pretend they are alone and that it is unique to their faith or religious text.

Precisely - moderation and modernization - and when a people disallow even the changing of a single word to their holy text, how likely is it that that religion will ever distill itself down into a calm and less-violent religion? Christianity underwent moderation through purging itself of literalism - or at least, the disavowal of the most violent parts of the Old and New Testaments... there exist today many different sects of Christianity, and almost as many versions of the Holy Bible - not major changes in the least, but at the very least, minor changes: 'people' substituted for 'man', 'shall' and 'will', slight changes to wording, and interpretation of these different wordings, and emphasis on different aspects of the text are what makes Christianity so diverse - yes, it's essentially the same belief system, but there exist many different emphases on what aspects of the Good Book are important and worth paying extra attention.

Muslims are unlikely, very unlikely - to the point of it being almost impossibly unlikely - to change their text in ANY way which would encourage moderation, slight or major - these folks believe their text to be the literal, inerrant, and already-perfect word of their 'god'. That which is already perfect cannot be further modified, period, full stop. I've asked more than one Muslim how many 'versions' of their 'holy' book, one I refuse to name on principle, exist - just one. Find one in Saudi Arabia, or Egypt, or Morocco or Malaysia - there is not a single word which differs - or will differ - from one text to the other. The differences amongst Muslim sects is NOT based in differences of emphasis of their 'holy' book, but rather, succession of their paedophilic leader-king-prophet. Sunni, the vast majority, believe that the successor to their pedophilic leader-prophet-king was Abu Bakr, his father-in-law, whose purpose was to establish a worldwide caliphate, or empire, under his rule. Shi'a muslims believe that instead of Abu Bakr, his longtime friend Ali should have succeeded their pedophilic prophet-king in their attempt to colonize and establish a world-wide empire.

The differences between Islamic sects, then, is not dogmatic in the least - it is over succession, over who may rightfully lay claim to the position of power when Islam eventually takes over the world - which, make no mistake, is the intended goal of Islam and its adherents. There shall be no lessening of violence because there shall be no moderation, nor modernization. Muslims who emigrate here, to we, the so-called 'Great Satan,' shun our way of life and instead largely cling to the barbarism which prevails in their homeland... for every story you can conjure of Jewish violence (what limited examples there are being mostly limited to the Israel conflict and violence against the British, in my opinion, but I am by no means a scholar of Judaism or the violence perpetrated to establish and maintain their nation-State, and I do not have an exhaustive list of violent acts committed in the name of their religion), I can conjure tens of dozens more committed by muslims in the name of their religion. Same for Christianity. Same for Hinduism, which isn't just about religious differences, it is a war over property, if you're referring to Jammu and Kashmir conflicts, or East/West Pakistan... in all of those cases, there was far more than theological differences which lead to the brutalities committed. While Islam does not have a sole monopoly on un-justifiable violence, it does seem to have 'cornered the market' on it, at the least.

Islam is also highly unlikely to moderate or modernize itself, not only for the very good theological reasons I've mentioned, but also because they SLAUGHTER any of their fellow muslims who promote either moderation or modernization, or who critique their religion or culture in the slightest. Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a women's rights advocate, spoke out against Islam and now must live under constant armed guard due to death threats - her colleague, Theo Van Gogh, spoke out against Islam and waived off Dutch armed guard - within a week, he was slaughtered.

Any religion in the world can accept criticism tolerantly, if not with docility, excepting Islam. Islamists the world over are the only ones who respond to religious criticism with threats of violence - as an atheist, I might not get the best responses from my countrymen, most of whom practice Christianity, but I don't fear for my life being an atheist and living next to Christians. I feared for my life living with a muslim for nine months in college, and for good reason - non-believers are even lower on their theological totem pole than Christians or Jews, who are known in muslim culture as 'People of the Book,' or 'dhimmi' - in the event of the establishment of a worldwide caliphate as Islam declares it will establish, Christians and Jews are given the option to submit to Islamic rule and to pay higher taxes and to surrender their arms and to keep their religion in their homes and to be left alone. Atheists are to be slaughtered outright.

Islam is unique in its escalation of violence and espousal of violence as a legitimate tool to seize power. Any Christian I know, any atheist I know, any Jew I know, the Hindu I know (I know well but one person who considers herself to be Hindu), condemns aggressive violence against unarmed civilians, no matter the religious differences of opinion. Only Islam cheers on the atrocities committed for the glory of their 'god'. Only Islam finds it acceptable to kill and maim and slaughter civilians with no military role whatsoever. Only Islam finds violence a useful tool in this, the twenty-first century (or, perhaps, this being an even later century than we realize).

So no, Islam is not the only religion whose adherents commit violence - but in other religions, such acts are far and away the exception to established practice - in Islam, committing violence is the standard, and is, in fact, highly encouraged amongst its followers.


Building a mosque near Ground Zero? Yes, they might have the right to do so - in fact, I'll stop hedging, they have the right to do so. A private entity may purchase property wherever it is not prohibited by lawful edict. But the fact that an imam feels it proper to even consider doing so makes it clear: this is a challenge to see precisely how far they can push us without retaliation. This imam is testing the waters. We had better have a response to this sort of religiously-motivated and financially-suspicious aggression lest we find our path mirroring that of formerly-'Great' Britain or Europe in general. To the degree that any religion holds beliefs which are even fantastical and wholly impossible, it is the right of that religion to hold those tenets. To the degree that people act upon such beliefs and are willing to commit violence against their neighbors - that is precisely and exactly the degree which such a religion should be tolerated. I refuse to propose pre-emptive violence against civilian populations. Neither do I propose letting us be slaughtered in the name of political - or dogmatic - expedience.

 

[Agent 007]

Ah! But you skipped right over the problem and the solution. Moderation. I would modify that to include Modernization. And that is not only possible, but is happening with those in the modern part of the world.

The moderation and modern nature of each religion is based on it's place in history not lines pulled from it's core text. Islam has not calmed down yet, and needs to be stopped in those places where it's adherents are committing crimes against man and law. But that is completely different than saying "Islam is unique in violence. Just look at the Koran!"

That is not only incorrect historically, but is also a useless path to go down in the modern world. It actually falls into the same kind of tribal thinking that we need to get many Muslims out of.

As for modern suicide bombers? Or school bombers? Yes, there have been Jewish settlers who went down this path and failed (the truck bomb failed to detonate). Don't even get started no the Christians in the Balkans wars of the 90's. Are there violent HIndu's? Oh, very much so - read up on hindu cleansing of Muslim areas in India in the 90's.

There is plenty of religious blood spilled outside of Islam. That is not to say that Muslims world wide are not at the top of a violence list, but let's not pretend they are alone and that it is unique to their faith or religious text.

Islam has not calmed down yet? Seriously? That's your answer? Perhaps we wait until after they have blown up a couple of elementary schools and a shopping mall or 2 here in the US before we dare to think, "Hey....there just might be a problem with this group of people."



So, do we just shrug our shoulders and wait for it to "calm down," or do we perhaps recognize that it is the most violent religion TODAY and plan accordingly? I am not one whit concerned about what other religions have done. The violence committed in the name of islam is most relevant with regards to the security of western society TODAY. Every day, we read about some new violence from the "religion of peace."

Islam absolutely IS unique in its use of violence, because this violence is justified by the religious text of their holy book and continues into the modern age....long after most people have advanced past the point of 12th century savagery. What other major religion calls for the forced conversion, subjugation or murder of innocent non-believers? I eagerly await your answer.

You say that islam simply needs to be modernized and moderated, since it has not "calmed down" yet. How many more centuries do we wait? You say that radicals are committing "crimes against man and law"....but whose law are you speaking of? Subjugation of women, oppression of non-believers, honor killings and calls for the execution of those insulting islam are quite the norm in many places where islam rules. They certainly don't care about our law, or any international law. Islam IS middle ages barbarism at its finest. Expecting that WE can do anything to change that is foolish.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of islam. Separation of church and state is an idea that is abhorrent to islam. Islam IS intended to be the law in any nation that falls under it. This cult is completely incompatible with western society.....period. Once islam takes hold, it is to be THE law of the land, and all other beliefs are considered to be "at war with Allah."

I'm not religious....I'm pretty much agnostic. But I happen to agree with many points put forth in this article:

Endless Jihad <---Click

It matters not what you think about any "peaceful" muslims you may know personally, because the fact is, despite their outward peacefulness, they have chosen a religion that preaches jihad. One only needs to look at Europe to see what happens when islam gains power and numbers in a free society. They do not assimilate, as do other cultures. They demand sharia law, separate from the laws of their host country. They don't care about freedom, liberty or justice. In Arabic, islam quite literally means "submission."

I'm not going to advocate the wholesale trampling of the liberties of "muslims" in this country, but neither am I going to bury my head in the sand and consider them to be "just another religion." I only hope that the nature of our free society does not prove to be our undoing. We certainly do make it easy for them.

 

[SavageEagle]

Ok before we get to far into an Anti-Muslim, Pro-Muslim debate...

Lets remember they are putting a MOSQUE practically ON Ground Zero.

Does this not bother you people defending Muslims? How would you feel if White Supremacists Erected statues and churches next to Nazi Death camps or in Jerusalem? People would be up in arms.

Instead of showing our displeasure with this great big apparent slap in the face, some of you are defending it. I don't see why. It's not about the 1A. It's about honor. At least in my mind. I bet those who lost their lives that day will be rolling in their graves at this. I would be.

 

[.30 Cal Al]

Hi

Neo-Nazis - well - the ones that can read a map, anyhow - have marches through Jewish neighborhoods. It pisses me off. They do it legally, so I put up with it.

The KKK has marches through downtown Bloomington, sometimes. It pisses me off. They do it legally, so I put up with it.

People burn the Flag of the U.S.A. to make some sophomoric point about some idiotic protest. It pisses me off. It's not illegal, so I put up with it.

People next door mow their yards at 11AM. It pisses me off. The city noise ordinance says that they can do it after 9AM. I put up with it.

I guess that I've just gotten used to putting up with things that **** me off that aren't illegal.

On the other hand, if you want to start a letter-writing campaign to New York City urging that they pass a city ordinance about building any new religious buildings within... oh... I dunno... five miles of Ground Zero, I'm your boy.

Otherwise, I'll grit my teeth, mutter under my breath about priorities and propriety, but still smile and say, "salaam! Kief hallek?" to all the little Muslim kids I meet as I shake their hands.

...and please let me say: I'm not pro-Muslim. I'm pro-people.

I say, "selamat petang," to the Indonesians, "guten morgen," to the Germans, "anyong hashumnika," to the Koreans, and, "goood morrrrning - hooowww arrrre youuuuu," to Democrats. I inherited the position of Republican precinct vice-committeeman, and I take my coffee black, my news unspun, and my vote seriously.

..and the one thing that pisses me off more than anything is hearing gun owners say things to justify their... negative feelings... about some other group of people that are simply redirection of what the gun-takers say to justify their feelings about gun owners.

...but it's legal, so I put up with it.

 

[SavageEagle]

On the other hand, if you want to start a letter-writing campaign to New York City urging that they pass a city ordinance about building any new religious buildings within... oh... I dunno... five miles of Ground Zero, I'm your boy.

If I thought it would do any good, I just might campaign across every forum, website and facebook friend/network that I have to push this. However it will never happen. They would be too afraid they would **** off the wrong people and have more violence on their hands. Instead they will just sit on them and allow this disgrace.

I'm not trying to justify anything but my opinion. I just find it disgraceful to those lost on that day. But, that's my opinion. I can't stop them, but I can hope it doesn't happen.

 

[MTC]

Islam has not calmed down yet? Seriously? That's your answer? Perhaps we wait until after they have blown up a couple of elementary schools and a shopping mall or 2 here in the US before we dare to think, "Hey....there just might be a problem with this group of people."



So, do we just shrug our shoulders and wait for it to "calm down," or do we perhaps recognize that it is the most violent religion TODAY and plan accordingly? I am not one whit concerned about what other religions have done. The violence committed in the name of islam is most relevant with regards to the security of western society TODAY. Every day, we read about some new violence from the "religion of peace."

Islam absolutely IS unique in its use of violence, because this violence is justified by the religious text of their holy book and continues into the modern age....long after most people have advanced past the point of 12th century savagery. What other major religion calls for the forced conversion, subjugation or murder of innocent non-believers? I eagerly await your answer.

You say that islam simply needs to be modernized and moderated, since it has not "calmed down" yet. How many more centuries do we wait? You say that radicals are committing "crimes against man and law"....but whose law are you speaking of? Subjugation of women, oppression of non-believers, honor killings and calls for the execution of those insulting islam are quite the norm in many places where islam rules. They certainly don't care about our law, or any international law. Islam IS middle ages barbarism at its finest. Expecting that WE can do anything to change that is foolish.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of islam. Separation of church and state is an idea that is abhorrent to islam. Islam IS intended to be the law in any nation that falls under it. This cult is completely incompatible with western society.....period. Once islam takes hold, it is to be THE law of the land, and all other beliefs are considered to be "at war with Allah."

I'm not religious....I'm pretty much agnostic. But I happen to agree with many points put forth in this article:

Endless Jihad <---Click

It matters not what you think about any "peaceful" muslims you may know personally, because the fact is, despite their outward peacefulness, they have chosen a religion that preaches jihad. One only needs to look at Europe to see what happens when islam gains power and numbers in a free society. They do not assimilate, as do other cultures. They demand sharia law, separate from the laws of their host country. They don't care about freedom, liberty or justice. In Arabic, islam quite literally means "submission."

I'm not going to advocate the wholesale trampling of the liberties of "muslims" in this country, but neither am I going to bury my head in the sand and consider them to be "just another religion." I only hope that the nature of our free society does not prove to be our undoing. We certainly do make it easy for them.

Excellent post. Excellent link. Accurate on all points.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

I think that this would be akin to putting up a shrine to Hitler or Nazism at Auschwitz. That is how offensive it is to me.

EXACTLY THIS ^^^^^^ I hope that the building implodes .

 

[rooster007]

RELIGIOUS FREEDOMS

Guys , some of the things you guys are saying I agree with , some I do not. I'm all for "the do onto other " thought train .... "Freedom of Religion "
I think we should allow them the same Freedom of Religion rights that they enjoy in their home country . Do they allow CHRISTIAN CHURCHES in Saudia , Iran ,Iraq . Turkey , Somalia , UAE , Afganistan , or any of the countless muslim countries ??? NO .
Muslim coutry ---No Christian Churches
Christian Nation ----No Mosque

If America does not wake up soon . We are going to end up like Most of Europe . Please take the time to look at what is already happening to American cities like Dearborn and Detroit .

 

[Agent 007]

...and please let me say: I'm not pro-Muslim. I'm pro-people.

..and the one thing that pisses me off more than anything is hearing gun owners say things to justify their... negative feelings... about some other group of people that are simply redirection of what the gun-takers say to justify their feelings about gun owners.

...but it's legal, so I put up with it.

Hi.

Nice to see that you are "pro-people." That probably works really well, in the land of puppy dogs and flowers, where, from the tone of your posts, you seem to be posting from.

So the one thing that pisses you off more than anything is not a religion that preaches oppression of women and barbaric practices like the subjugation and murder of innocents. No, that doesn't **** you off. What pisses you off is someone daring to criticize such a group.

The writings in the koran are all I need to "justify" my criticism of this cult. Mohammed didn't mince words. Neither do I. Perhaps one day, when you care more about the security of your fellow countrymen than your need to be a warm and fuzzy lover of everybody, you will open your eyes to the truth staring you in the face.

If you can't tell the difference between criticism of gun owners by anti-gun people and criticism of a religion that preaches the slaughter and subjugation of non-believers, then I hardly know what to say to you.

 

[rooster007]

Agent007

Agent007 very well put ,totally agree with you

 

[rooster007]

RELIGIOUS FREEDOMS

Guys , some of the things you guys are saying I agree with , some I do not. I'm all for "the do onto other " thought train .... "Freedom of Religion "
I think we should allow them the same Freedom of Religion rights that they enjoy in their home country . Do they allow CHRISTIAN CHURCHES in Saudia , Iran ,Iraq . Turkey , Somalia , UAE , Afganistan , or any of the countless muslim countries ??? NO .
Muslim coutry ---No Christian Churches
Christian Nation ----No Mosque

If America does not wake up soon . We are going to end up like Most of Europe . Please take the time to look at what is already happening to American cities like Dearborn and Detroit .

 

[CarmelHP]

There is always a Quisling lurking around.

YouTube - It's In The Koran

 

[Scutter01]

Alright, I think this has gone on long enough. I think some of you are forgetting that this is supposed to be a gun board.