Nazi prison guard found living in U.K.

[techres]

There's also a difference between signing up for the military and joining a burglary.

My examples come from an actual murder case in which a 17 year old boy got 30 years. Not the worst kid, just one that liked to hang out with the worst kid.

During the burglary the young man decided that he did not want to be a part of it any more. But he did not leave. Instead he went out front and smoked a cig while he waited.

And back inside, hit friend came across a woman and hit her - killing her.

Had the young man left the scene when he made his decision, he would have been convicted for burglary and not murder. Had he simply walked away, then he would have not gotten 30 years. Heck, had he not made any of the choices he made that night, he would likely be out of jail now instead of still in there.

He went to jail because he was an accomplice. While being an accomplice to burglary, a woman was murdered and that made him an accomplice to murder. Simple law, unbending law, completed law. He is in jail.

The guy in this new story was an accomplice. Bond, you argue that he was forced, or had no knowledge, or was otherwise not guilty other than by association. You draw that both from a lack of indictment and from some other place I do not get.

Yet, if there is, in fact, evidence against him. Evidence that he was an accomplice to murder, torture, and genocide - then he must have his day in court. And, to be honest, I don't see him as some innocent pushed into a do or die choice (for which there is NO evidence at all, BTW), but that guy standing in the room with a ski mask on his head, just like the uniform he put on every day as people died under his guard.

 

[2cool9031]

i guess this would bring up discussion at what point do you go from a soldier following orders manning your post etc...to being a war criminal. Is a German private assigned to a post at Auschwitz anymore bad than one sent to the Russian front?

I agree totally! That would be the same as looking for any German soldiers who might have shot any american GI's. Where do you draw the line between the person giving the orders and the ones that carry them out for fear of their own life?

 

[techres]

I agree totally! That would be the same as looking for any German soldiers who might have shot any american GI's. Where do you draw the line between the person giving the orders and the ones that carry them out for fear of their own life?

Courts do this all the time. It is part of the trial system. It is taken into account in both the determination of innocence vs. guilt stage as well as the punishment stage.

We are not creating a new reality here.

And as for the moral comparison made here, think on the difference between these two things:

1. Soldiers, in war, under arms shooting each other.
2. Soldiers, in or out of war, rounding up unarmed civilians for rape, torture and murder.

If you cannot see a moral distinction between the two, then there is a fundamental failure of both logic and morality at play.

Luckily, the law is here to measure each person's actions so that justice is done for each and all. That is why we use it instead of actual lynch mobs or haphazard forgiveness by those who were never effected in the first place.

 

[Scutter01]

I would have bee SS more than likely an officer. I probably wouldn't have served under Hitler.....maybe Heydrich. Hitler was good at speaking, that is all. We assassinated Heydrich, though. If we hadn't, we would all speak German.

This is a case of the world jew illustrated.....only the winners write the history books. When the Muslims take over, there will be plenty of American soldiers being hunted down and murdered after they take care of the jews-- Americans that were just following orders.

So that I am clear, you are saying that:

1. Jews won WWII.
2. Germany could have defeated America with just a change in one leader.
3. That American soldiers today are at the same risk of false or overblown accusation by Muslims as Nazi soldiers are by Jews?

Just making absolutely sure before I respond on each point.

The staff is eagerly awaiting the response to this as well. I, personally, would like to hear a broader explanation of how you would have been an Nazi SS officer.

I didn't want this buried at the bottom of the last page, only to be completely missed (or ignored). I want it to be completely clear that we expect an explanation for this type of comment.

 

[edporch]

It's EASY to talk BIG about what we'd have done if given the choices this man was no doubt given.

I want to know MORE before I pass judgement on this man.

This man was clearly a PEON from occupied Poland, he wasn't a German.

He COULD'VE been simply trying to survive, and help his family survive.
I want to know if any coercion was involved.

It says his family felt it "better" for him to join the Germans.

For example, what if the Germans told him to either join their military, or HIS family would be killed or put in a concentration camp?
How "brave" would any of us be if it was OUR family being threatened with this?

Then after he goes with them they order him to be a guard in a concentration camp?
The he's told if he doesn't cooperate, his family will be killed or brought there?


I ASK these questions because I have a friend who came from Germany as a kid and was born a few years after the war.

He tells of his own family's history where he had relatives who were doing everything from hiding Jewish people to being in the SS and everything in between.

EVEN as a German it was messed up during those years trying to survive the Nazi's.
Trying to survive as a citizen of an occupied country had to be much worse.

I want to know more before I pass judgment.

 

[Bond 281]

It's EASY to talk BIG about what we'd have done if given the choices this man was no doubt given.

I want to know MORE before I pass judgement on this man.

This man was clearly a PEON from occupied Poland, he wasn't a German.

He COULD'VE been simply trying to survive, and help his family survive.
I want to know if any coercion was involved.

It says his family felt it "better" for him to join the Germans.

For example, what if the Germans told him to either join their military, or HIS family would be killed or put in a concentration camp?
How "brave" would any of us be if it was OUR family being threatened with this?

Then after he goes with them they order him to be a guard in a concentration camp?
The he's told if he doesn't cooperate, his family will be killed or brought there?


I ASK these questions because I have a friend who came from Germany as a kid and was born a few years after the war.

He tells of his own family's history where he had relatives who were doing everything from hiding Jewish people to being in the SS and everything in between.

EVEN as a German it was messed up during those years trying to survive the Nazi's.
Trying to survive as a citizen of an occupied country had to be much worse.

I want to know more before I pass judgment.

This sums up a great many arguments.

Techres: I'm not ignorant of the law in regard to accomplices. However, war crimes are tried under different rules. I am ignorant of exactly how they determine degrees of culpability. That being said, I can't imagine convicting somebody of a war crime without solid evidence or witnesses as to what he might have done. There are far too many "what ifs" and speculations to ascertain real guilt. It's likely that he beat and killed some prisoners. It's not certain. I wouldn't want to imprison a 90 year old man just be cause it's likely that he did something 70 years ago. But then, I follow the idea that it's better to let 10 guilty men go free than to wrongfully imprison one innocent man. Because maybe he was just a guy who joined up so his family wouldn't be persecuted and tried to give them small kindnesses and maybe smuggle them in some comforts, depressed that he couldn't do more. Or maybe he was one of the bad ones. I don't know. Neither do you. There's no way of telling.

 

[Redemption]

I didn't want this buried at the bottom of the last page, only to be completely missed (or ignored). I want it to be completely clear that we expect an explanation for this type of comment.

What's there to explain? If I had been in the German army, I would have joined the SS and striven to be an officer...at least a Captain. Heydrich was assassinated. The only assassination in WWII if I recall. He was being groomed to replace the idiot Hitler and the Allies new it. Had he replaced Hitler, the war would have gone a different direction, more than likely being won by the Germans. If they had won and controlled all of Europe how long before North America? enough 'splainin'?

I guess political opinions now need to be vetted by DHS of the gun forum?

Oh yeah, the History books are always written by the winners hence nary a mention of Elie Wiesel's collaboration with Germans...

 

[Scutter01]

What's there to explain? If I had been in the German army, I would have joined the SS and striven to be an officer...at least a Captain. Heydrich was assassinated. The only assassination in WWII if I recall. He was being groomed to replace the idiot Hitler and the Allies new it. Had he replaced Hitler, the war would have gone a different direction, more than likely being won by the Germans. If they had won and controlled all of Europe how long before North America? enough 'splainin'?

I guess political opinions now need to be vetted by DHS of the gun forum?

Oh yeah, the History books are always written by the winners hence nary a mention of Elie Wiesel's collaboration with Germans...

I see. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. You should go back to Stormfront with it. Goodbye.

 

[Bill of Rights]

I see. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. You should go back to Stormfront with it. Goodbye.

I'm Bill of Rights and I approve this message. This forum has no place for Nazi sympathizers or other forms of racial or religious bigotry.

 

[KG1]

+1 Scutter, Good call.

 

[firehawk1]

You should go back to Stormfront with it. Goodbye.

Maybe off topic but I'd never heard of StormFront before. My curiosity got the better of me.

All I can say is WOW.... unbelievable. IF that is where the poster was coming from, I agree Goodbye. Some rather dangerous sounding "people" over there!

 

[Bill of Rights]

Maybe off topic but I'd never heard of StormFront before. My curiosity got the better of me.

All I can say is WOW.... unbelievable. IF that is where the poster was coming from, I agree Goodbye. Some rather dangerous sounding "people" over there!

Not the first we've had from there. None that we've found are still here. They are welcome to their opinions, but they are not welcome to spread filth like that on INGO.

 

[E5RANGER375]

that was weird. im still confused by his posts

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

Back toward the topic at hand... I have to agree wholeheardtedly with Techres, dross, et al. It IS important to remember any and all of the genocides that have taken place.

Why?

1) If we don't remember how easily it can happen we are doomed to repeat history. Remember that German society went from a financial collapse to looking for a Savior to unspeakable horror in a VERY short time. This was a supposedly _civilized_ society. It serves as a reminder that indeed WE can devolve with the same speed in OUR society.

2) Remember that by all accounts we are heading into VERY turbulent economic times... people in groups do strange things when they are angry, hungry, pissed off, feel deprived etc.

3) Those who would allow the genocide of one group will not be satisfied with blaming that group alone. The blame game always has to point the finger at another group. This is why every purge in WWII was not confined to one group.

4) And we must remember that there were atrocities committed on the German side, the Russian side, the Japanese side - etc...

5) Lastly, we must remember that it HAS happened on our watch here in America as well. Our treatment of Native Americans has not been exemplary (to understate it a bit). OK - you say, but they weren't citizens.... The Mormons _were_ American citizens and were ordered to be exterminated by the Governor of Missouri and physically driven off of their property and from the state, and later from the boundaries of the US, as they existed at the time.


If we DON'T remember this, the next time it will be OUR religion, or race, or political point of view that is chosen for TARGETTING. Leave aside the simple fact that it is wrong. For these reasons, I have to agree with those who have spoken up (Techres, dross, et al) and say that it IS important and there is NO Statute of Limitations - or there certainly should not be.

By all means, let this man have a fair trail. AND I DO MEAN A _FAIR_ TRIAL. No rush to judgement - or we are guilty of a good piece of what we accuse him of. That said, if we forget what was done, and refuse to do our best to bring the responsible people to justice, then we do ourselves, our children, and our future an even greater disservice.

 

[dross]

How many promotions between Shooter and SS officer?

 

[Kutnupe14]

Maybe off topic but I'd never heard of StormFront before. My curiosity got the better of me.

All I can say is WOW.... unbelievable. IF that is where the poster was coming from, I agree Goodbye. Some rather dangerous sounding "people" over there!

I've been over to Stormfront beofre, it's a differnt place. Losers all of them...

 

[CarmelHP]

I think I've found some video of Redemption

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIZKZ3C1ML8

 

[BillyT]

Edit I do not wish to entertain these conversations.