neck or full length sizing question

[jstory]

Getting ready to start reloading 223. My sizing die is full length. I know I will have to use it on once fired, but what about my brass out of my AR? Can I just neck size that brass and be fine? Or should I just use the full length die and not worry about neck sizing. Fairly new to rifle reloading and would like to get it right...thanks again INGO

 

[bocefus78]

For a semi auto, FL size.
For a bolt gun, neck size after an initial FL size and fire form.

I'm also new to necked cartridges, but this is what I was told by some respected members of ingo.

 

[billybob44]

Happy 500th..

For a semi auto, FL size.
For a bolt gun, neck size after an initial FL size and fire form.

I'm also new to necked cartridges, but this is what I was told by some respected members of ingo.

Happy 500th post boc..

Yeah j. you should FL size your brass for your AR..

Some hand loaders even like to go as far as to size with a small base size die.
I have had good luck with just using my Redding Full Length size die set..Bill

 

[oldpink]

Bocefus is right on with the advice that he was given and shared with you.
Always full length size for any semi-auto, and it's probably best to also do that for any ammo you intend to fire in a lever action, pump, or single shot.
Bolt actions are unique in how they give so much leverage when closing, which is why neck sizing is preferable for brass fired in a specific rifle.
The one qualification I would make to neck sizing is that you can do it and just about guarantee no problem closing the bolt, but only if you load it with brass fired in the same rifle that you then neck sized and reloaded.
IOW, don't try and load neck sized ammo in a different rifle than the one it was fired in before you reloaded it, because no two rifles' chambers are exactly the same, even bolt actions.
If there is any possibility that your reloads will be fired in more than one rifle, go ahead and play it safe by full length sizing instead.
Also, some simple advice to ensure no problem when out hunting is to put your safety on, then take all of your neck sized brass and fully cycle it through your action before taking it along for a hunt.
If you have any problem chambering a round, at least it'll be at home, where it won't spoil your hunt!

 

[Broom_jm]

FWIW - I don't FL size cases for single-shot actions...I size them only as much as indicated, which is rarely full-length.

For an AR, neck-sizing isn't the best choice as it can lead to issues with rounds feeding reliably.

 

[jstory]

Thanks for all the help guys. If and when I get my Savage in 223, I will get the neck sizing die. Got what need at least for reloading the AR.

 

[Woobie]

The AR I have is more of a minute-of-bad guy weapon anyway. So I have nothing to gain by neck sizing, other than saving the step of lubing the cases.

I plan on having a sub moa ar at some point. Sub moa is still doable with FL resized brass, and you don't have the accompanying feeding issues that others have mentioned.

Bottom line: I don't really see a reason to neck size brass for the AR, unless you were doing something wierd that was totally outside the design philosophy of the weapon, like single feed the rounds to try to get 1/4 moa groups.

 

[natdscott]

Frankly, there is not a lot of proven reason, accuracy wise, to NOT full-length size all bottle-neck rifle cartridges for all rifles. The only exception to this is the benchrest competitor, who will often be running such a tight chamber that the brass needs no sizing on any dimension except the neck, and who will be sizing on the range with only hand-dies in between strings of fire.

For the rest of us, an FL sizer with controlled, controllable, neck tension--and properly set up to bump the shoulder back 0.001-0.004" from fired dimension, depending on rifle--is the right choice.

If you want "best" for AR platform loading, it is the Redding S-Type FL sizer, or a custom equivalent. Ability to control neck tension and sizing is somewhat critical to both accuracy with some bullets, and to case life unless you commit to regular annealing. Most FL dies will size down to about 0.242", coming out of the die. That's a LOT of tension that is not needed, as most loaded rounds will come out to 0.2465-0.248" Loaded OD. In fact, that is crimping the CRAP out of match bullets.

Too, when you mic your necks form the chamber, you'll find that they are probably 0.255" or better OD. Sizing back down 0.010" is bad enough (as allowed by the Redding S-type), so you're better not to make that 0.015".

Neck sizing has it's place, but it's not on a self-loader that craps where it eats, it's not for hunting-grade bolt rifles, and it's not for anything that absolutely HAS to have 100% stone-reliable feeding. Seeing as the AR-15 itself can still put in groups under 1/2 MOA with FL-sized brass, and good bolt guns will easily do 1/2 of that again, I see little practical reason for neck sizing.

But I don't shoot 25-lb rifles from a concrete bench for Zero groups either.

-Nate

 

[kennedy759]

I FL size for my AR, and neck size for my rem 700 in .308 and swedish mauser 6.5x55

 

[shibumiseeker]

Frankly, there is not a lot of proven reason, accuracy wise, to NOT full-length size all bottle-neck rifle cartridges for all rifles. The only exception to this is the benchrest competitor, who will often be running such a tight chamber that the brass needs no sizing on any dimension except the neck, and who will be sizing on the range with only hand-dies in between strings of fire.

For the rest of us, an FL sizer with controlled, controllable, neck tension--and properly set up to bump the shoulder back 0.001-0.004" from fired dimension, depending on rifle--is the right choice.
-Nate

Accuracy wise you are correct.

The best reason to neck size for rounds fired in the same bolt action rifle is dramatically improved brass life and eliminating the risk of case separation in the chamber. The brass-life tests that I have done, many of which have been posted here on INGO, have shown on average 3-5 times the amount of life for a piece of brass fron neck sizing versus FL sizing.

 

[natdscott]

Well how much were you bumping the shoulders on the FL sized brass, shibumi?

If you keep it to 0.001", then brass life is very very good, pending who made it in the first place.

-Nate

 

[bulletsmith]

Well how much were you bumping the shoulders on the FL sized brass, shibumi?

If you keep it to 0.001", then brass life is very very good, pending who made it in the first place.

-Nate

Imagine though if you could bump that shoulder back once, and then neck size 3 times (and trim) before you need to bump the shoulder back again. Brass life is extended further.

 

[teddy12b]

I think brass life largely depends on what brass you're starting out with. I have a heavy barreled 3006 that has 200 pieces of lapua brass that I use to keep it well fed. That rifle and brass have over 2500 rounds through them. I've only tossed 2 or 3 pieces of that lapua brass. The only 3006 dies I have are full length sizing because I want my ammo to function in any gun. That ammo was accurate enough to hit steel at 1000 yards last Saturday and last Monday night. I'm not a bench rest shooter, I just like accurate guns.

Here's another way to look at it, full length sizing will dumby proof your ammo as far as chambering goes.

 

[Broom_jm]

One of our members did an exhaustive test comparing the impact of FL resizing, annealing, and neck-sizing on brass case life. Hands down, without any doubt, FL sized cases failed with the fewest number of loads. Annealing seemed to maybe help a little, but neck-sizing was shown to be the absolute key to longer case life.

What seems to be missed here is that you can use a FL die, adjusted properly, to size down the body of the case and bump the shoulder back, without resizing the brass excessively.

 

[shibumiseeker]

One of our members did an exhaustive test comparing the impact of FL resizing, annealing, and neck-sizing on brass case life. Hands down, without any doubt, FL sized cases failed with the fewest number of loads. Annealing seemed to maybe help a little, but neck-sizing was shown to be the absolute key to longer case life.

What seems to be missed here is that you can use a FL die, adjusted properly, to size down the body of the case and bump the shoulder back, without resizing the brass excessively.

That was CountryBoy19 and I, and annealing gave approximately 10% less life across the board.

Obviously the less you work brass in a FL sizing die the longer it will last, but there becomes a point where you are no longer gaining anything, it still works the brass more than neck sizing. I did a test on just bumping the shoulder back but I didn't publish it because my sample size was one and it was for my .50BMG.

 

[Broom_jm]

That was CountryBoy19 and I, and annealing gave approximately 10% less life across the board.

Obviously the less you work brass in a FL sizing die the longer it will last, but there becomes a point where you are no longer gaining anything, it still works the brass more than neck sizing. I did a test on just bumping the shoulder back but I didn't publish it because my sample size was one and it was for my .50BMG.

I don't know how much time/resources it would take, but I'd be very interested in a documented test where the shoulder was consistently set back 1 or 2 thousandths shorter than the chamber. My guess is it would result in case life that is similar to neck-sizing, but considerably better than FL resizing.

 

[oldpink]

There's one more very good reason for neck sizing, other than extending brass life (btw...great work doing that test with Countryboy, shibumiseeker), and that is to get the best potential accuracy because the case is fireformed to a specific chamber.

 

[17 squirrel]

That was CountryBoy19 and I, and annealing gave approximately 10% less life across the board.

Obviously the less you work brass in a FL sizing die the longer it will last, but there becomes a point where you are no longer gaining anything, it still works the brass more than neck sizing. I did a test on just bumping the shoulder back but I didn't publish it because my sample size was one and it was for my .50BMG.

That sounds like a interesting test you guys did.
But still, the sizes of the chambers of the firearms and the sizes of the id of the FL sizing dies and what pressures the rounds were loaded to will change the longevity of the brass that was used during your tests.
And example would be , if rifle A has a large chamber and sizing die A has a small ID and its a warm load, you will have a short life on your brass.
And the opposite if rifle B has a small chamber and sizer A with the small ID is used you will have a longer brass life.
.there's more involved in brass life than just neck sizing and pushing the shoulder back.

 

[shibumiseeker]

I don't know how much time/resources it would take, but I'd be very interested in a documented test where the shoulder was consistently set back 1 or 2 thousandths shorter than the chamber. My guess is it would result in case life that is similar to neck-sizing, but considerably better than FL resizing.

Well, the annealing test cost about $400 in materials and took us like a year and a half mostly because our schedules didn't mesh well. If I had been doing it by myself like I did the nickel plated versus plain brass test it probably would have taken a couple of months based on my normal shooting schedule.

I'll do the test and publish my results if enough people are interested. It's not a particular question I have a personal need to be answered.

 

[shibumiseeker]

That sounds like a interesting test you guys did.
But still, the sizes of the chambers of the firearms and the sizes of the id of the FL sizing dies and what pressures the rounds were loaded to will change the longevity of the brass that was used during your tests.

Indeed. Which is why our test isolated as many variables as we could, using the same charge, same brass, same bullets, same person reloading on the same equipment, and same rifle. I am a scientist and know how to design an experiment ;-) My brass experiments are designed to answer a specific question and the methodology is published. Of course brass life has lots of variables which is why we isolated as many of the variables as we can. I could spend the rest of my shooting life doing the properly designed experiments, but as it is out of my own pocket they'll happen as I become interested in the answers. Very few people are actually doing well designed experiments, instead we get a bunch of "well, I think X happens because I've always done it this way."