Never heard of this before

[littletommy]

This is really odd, affecting homes near me.
https://www.wdrb.com/news/at-least-...cle_7343a62a-83a1-11ed-ab22-f3b724a7d95d.html

 

[littletommy]

I’m not clear on how carbon monoxide is just randomly getting into houses. I’ve heard rumblings that the gas company is cutting its natural gas with propane?

 

[Tryin']

My bet is on poor venting. Petroleum based fuels all produce CO during combustion. High winds can create negative draft in a structure, and voila, CO saturation. Dirty jets and fuel contaminates will exacerbate the issue.

 

[snorko]

With the extreme winds we have had, is there any way the winds could cause backflow to furnace combustion vents? A most likely ignorant and naive question I know.

 

[littletommy]

My bet is on poor venting. Petroleum based fuels all produce CO during combustion. High winds can create negative draft in a structure, and voila, CO saturation.

That’s what I’m thinking as well, but it just seems to have popped up all at once. When I first heard about it, I thought “must be an apartment complex” but no, quite a few homes affected in Clark and Floyd county. Weird it would just happen all at once.

 

[Jaybird1980]

My bet is on poor venting. Petroleum based fuels all produce CO during combustion. High winds can create negative draft in a structure, and voila, CO saturation. Dirty jets and fuel contaminates will exacerbate the issue.

I would guess this as well.

I imagine supplemental heat sources are a factor also. Kerosene heaters, propane heaters, vent free heaters.

 

[Tryin']

The large wind event of the past two days, heavy use, possible vapor condensation and freezing in the vent stack due to temps below design criteria, supplemental heat, hasty sealing of exterior air intrusion points... It stacks up pretty quick.

Edit to add that the sudden increase in thermal loading cycles due to increased use may have resulted in compromised heat exchangers. This would allow for combustion gases to be directly injected into the air circulation loop.

 

[WanderingSol07]

I believe CO is produced due to incomplete burning which means the burner/furnace needs adjusting. Normal combustion should produce little to no CO. And if high winds cause flue gases to enter the house, it should be adjusted/maintained too, as again this is not normal.

Talking to my HVAC maintainer, he says there are many systems where people only call when there is a major problem. Some are bad enough to give him a headache from the time he enters the house to the time he gets to the furnace. Some are so bad he calls the fire department to air out the house.

 

[Peacekeeper3073]

I’m not clear on how carbon monoxide is just randomly getting into houses. I’ve heard rumblings that the gas company is cutting its natural gas with propane?

You heard correct.

 

[Leo]

It is always a shame when people get hurt.

CO detectors have become really affordable, I have one next to both smoke alarms.

 

[bwframe]

Would a really dirty furnace filter add to the air flow conditions causing this?


.

 

[rob63]

I’ve heard rumblings that the gas company is cutting its natural gas with propane?

Propane is an ingredient in natural gas that requires extra refining in order to extract it from the natural gas. Thus, resulting in propane being roughly 4 times as expensive as natural gas, so this scenario makes no sense.

Propane vs. Natural Gas: A Comparison For Homeowners | Santa Energy

Is propane or natural gas the better solution for your home? Read what Santa Energy has to say about the time-tested debate.

www.santaenergy.com

 

[cburnworth]

Just remember CO detectors need to be properly placed. I hate saying this, but follow the installation instructions that come with the detector.

 

[tsm]

Granted the santaenergy article is 3 years old and prices are different now, but can someone explain how they arrived at this conclusion?

“Which means for the same amount of fuel, you’ll pay $6.23 for natural gas and $26.99 for propane.
However, actual cost should also take into consideration efficiency.
The more efficient the fuel is, the less you’ll use, which plays a role in overall cost. And, overall, propane is the more efficient fuel.
One cubic foot of propane equals 2,516 BTUs, while one cubic foot of natural gas equals 1,030 BTUs. That means, propane is more than twice the energy of natural gas.
While the cost per gallon is less for natural gas, you’ll use more of it to heat the same appliances. If you get two times the heat from propane, naturally, you’ll use less fuel.
In this combined round, propane wins for efficiency and overall cost.”

If propane costs 4X the cost of NG for the same amount of fuel, but it contains only 2.5X the energy (heat) per that volume, sure sounds like you’ll spend more money to obtain the same heating energy with propane than with NG. In order to make the heating costs equal, propane would have to have 4X the energy of NG, not 2.5, no? Seems like the article’s conclusion is wrong, or is my brain just not functioning this Christmas morning???

 

[WanderingSol07]

Would a really dirty furnace filter add to the air flow conditions causing this?


.

I would not think so, air used for combustion is either used from the space the furnace is in or brought in from outside directly to the furnace. The flue gases then either go up a chimney or forced out through an exhaust pipe. Flue gases should never enter the living space unless something is badly amiss with the furnace.

On my 'new' furnace, installed in 2006, combustion air is drawn through a PVC pipe from outside, sent to the burners where natural gas is used, and then exhausted back outside through another PVC pipe. That whole process is in a sealed system so nothing should enter the living spaces. The burners heat a large steel transfer plate that in turn warms the inside air as it is drawn in the cold air return, through the filter, over the transfer plate, and back out through all the air ducts in the house.

My old furnace did the same thing except air from combustion was drawn in from the utility space the furnace was in, combusted, and the hot flue gases were directed up into the chimney. With this furnace I could remove a simple cover and stick my hand into the area of the burners and reach past the burners up into the chimney. The only thing that kept the flue gases from entering the living space was a unblocked chimney. In fact when the furnace first starts up you could smell natural gas and flue gases in the utility area. After a few seconds of running the flow up the chimney started and cleared the room of the smell. This was normal operation. A blocked chimney flue would cause flue gases to stay in the house, not good! The normal output of combustion should be CO2 and water, but if the chimney is blocked and enough flue gases stayed in the house it could cause poor/incomplete burning which would produce CO.

 

[Brandon]

The large wind event of the past two days, heavy use, possible vapor condensation and freezing in the vent stack due to temps below design criteria, supplemental heat, hasty sealing of exterior air intrusion points... It stacks up pretty quick.

Edit to add that the sudden increase in thermal loading cycles due to increased use may have resulted in compromised heat exchangers. This would allow for combustion gases to be directly injected into the air circulation loop.

If all works as it should, a roll out sensor should trip.

Should.

 

[tomcat13]

Within the article:
"He said officials told him the carbon monoxide levels were so high in his apartment building that there was a danger of an explosion."
1) the guy's name was "Frogg Corpse" C'mon Really?
2) danger of Explosion?-to the best of my knowledge, CO Isn't Flammable

 

[Cameramonkey]

Within the article:
"He said officials told him the carbon monoxide levels were so high in his apartment building that there was a danger of an explosion."
1) the guy's name was "Frogg Corpse" C'mon Really?
2) danger of Explosion?-to the best of my knowledge, CO Isn't Flammable

It is indeed considered flammable.
I only learned this recently as well.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Interesting. While flammable, it apparently is very stable. It’s autoignition temp is over 1100*F.
As a reference, more common gasses like Propane are less than half that.

 

[rob63]

Granted the santaenergy article is 3 years old and prices are different now, but can someone explain how they arrived at this conclusion?

“Which means for the same amount of fuel, you’ll pay $6.23 for natural gas and $26.99 for propane.
However, actual cost should also take into consideration efficiency.
The more efficient the fuel is, the less you’ll use, which plays a role in overall cost. And, overall, propane is the more efficient fuel.
One cubic foot of propane equals 2,516 BTUs, while one cubic foot of natural gas equals 1,030 BTUs. That means, propane is more than twice the energy of natural gas.
While the cost per gallon is less for natural gas, you’ll use more of it to heat the same appliances. If you get two times the heat from propane, naturally, you’ll use less fuel.
In this combined round, propane wins for efficiency and overall cost.”

If propane costs 4X the cost of NG for the same amount of fuel, but it contains only 2.5X the energy (heat) per that volume, sure sounds like you’ll spend more money to obtain the same heating energy with propane than with NG. In order to make the heating costs equal, propane would have to have 4X the energy of NG, not 2.5, no? Seems like the article’s conclusion is wrong, or is my brain just not functioning this Christmas morning???

I don't really know, but your reasoning seems logical to me. I suspect the final conclusion of the article is rooted more in the fact that the company sells propane and fuel oil rather than in the logic of using it to heat your house with. I posted the article in reference to the question regarding the idea of cutting natural gas with propane, not whether it really makes sense to use propane.