New brass life test: annealing

[DocIndy]

Did you notice any accuracy issues as the cracks developed, like P.O.I. shifting? And good work guys...this is useful information for the rest of us reloaders.

 

[shibumiseeker]

Did you notice any accuracy issues as the cracks developed, like P.O.I. shifting? And good work guys...this is useful information for the rest of us reloaders.

We're not shooting for groups, and we're using cheap bullets and a load not tuned for the gun, and we're not shooting for accuracy, so we have too many variables to isolate just one. Out of the hundred or so rounds we each shot yesterday the overall groups were several inches across at 100 yards. I may run that test in the future with my gun with match loads tuned for it, so I'll keep that in mind as a future test.

 

[CountryBoy19]

I don't have much to add other than I think I'm going to need to rebarrel my gun when this is completed. Not only because of the number of shots, but because we're not letting it cool down too much. I actually burned my thumb yesterday when I brushed up against the barrel after we finished.

Either way, I'm ok with a rebarrel job. It's something I planned to do eventually anyways.

 

[Bull13]

Looking to do a. 223 test.

I wonder if .223 would fare as well? I have nt measured case wall thickness but would hazard a guess that. 223 is thinner than. 308: this could play a significant roll in case life..

 

[shibumiseeker]

I wonder if .223 would fare as well? I have nt measured case wall thickness but would hazard a guess that. 223 is thinner than. 308: this could play a significant roll in case life..

Possibly. I seem to get less life out of .223 neck sized brass, but I haven't done a test of it, and this test is about annealing not overall life per se.

 

[pinshooter45]

Interesting test!

But since I don't reload .308, I was wondering is the 46.1 grn of varget behind a 165 gr bullet a fullpower load? By the 2425fps it seems close from what I remember. So would you consider this light, medium, or full power. I plan to begin reloading 8mm Mauser soon and since the case is between 30-06 and .308 this info may be useful to me. I'd like to make my brass last as long as posible.

 

[CountryBoy19]

But since I don't reload .308, I was wondering is the 46.1 grn of varget behind a 165 gr bullet a fullpower load? By the 2425fps it seems close from what I remember. So would you consider this light, medium, or full power. I plan to begin reloading 8mm Mauser soon and since the case is between 30-06 and .308 this info may be useful to me. I'd like to make my brass last as long as posible.

Nah, that's a light/medium load. A hot load would probably be closer to 2650 fps or maybe even more. I'm not too familiar with this bullet/powder combo so I'm not positive.

 

[shibumiseeker]

Nah, that's a light/medium load. A hot load would probably be closer to 2650 fps or maybe even more. I'm not too familiar with this bullet/powder combo so I'm not positive.

Hogdon's website shows a maximum charge of 46gr Varget with a 165 gr Hornaday bullet (they don't list the Rem Core-Lokt). They list it as a compressed charge, but ours isn't in the brass we're using. I developed this load to be used with my LR-308 and since it's one of the cheaper bullets out there and I already had a bunch when we started the test, it was the load we used.

Given that several of the hotrodders are using up to 48gr Varget, I'm comfortable with 46.1gr in our setup and calling it a solidly medium load given the velocity we're getting and the fact we showed no pressure signs. If we used a hotter primer we might push the velocity up a hundred fps or so. I might load a few when I get back and see how much difference it makes.

Like any loads, Pinshooter should start lower and work up his load for his gun. My .308 shooting 168gr SMKs seems to like 43-44gr Varget best and I'm getting similar velocities.

 

[pinshooter45]

Just got my 8mm dies last 1500, and don't have any reloadable brass except for 3 boxes of S&B I have not shot yet so I'm still researching. May reload some 54R just to see If I can improve accracy for Vintage Rifle matches, would like to find a common powder for both. Data that came with the dies isn't looking good for a common powder.

 

[shibumiseeker]

Just got my 8mm dies last 1500, and don't have any reloadable brass except for 3 boxes of S&B I have not shot yet so I'm still researching. May reload some 54R just to see If I can improve accracy for Vintage Rifle matches, would like to find a common powder for both. Data that came with the dies isn't looking good for a common powder.

Varget is a pretty good "do-all" powder. You can load most rifle loads with it to some degree. It may not be the absolute best powder for some, but for someone looking to stock a reliable, temperature stable powder usable across a broad range, it's one of the best.

 

[pinshooter45]

Seems like a lot of people use Varget. That may be my next powder for rifles. Still working with my 8lbs of 2230 I bought on sale for $68.00...those were the good old days!

 

[CountryBoy19]

BTT, to make this easy to find for shibumiseeker (update incoming).

Just a teaser, we started testing Neck-size only annealed, FL size annealed, and FL size non-annealed.

We were intrigued by the results of the FL sized test (brass has failed already in only 2 shooting sessions).

 

[shibumiseeker]

BTT, to make this easy to find for shibumiseeker (update incoming).

Just a teaser, we started testing Neck-size only annealed, FL size annealed, and FL size non-annealed.

We were intrigued by the results of the FL sized test (brass has failed already in only 2 shooting sessions).

Thanks man, and here it is:

A month ago or so we got together to start conducting the rest of the test. Yesterday we got together and finally started getting some results. The control group (no annealing, neck sizing only) lasted a long time and so we decided on an annealing schedule of every five firings. We took 3 groups:

5 cases neck sized and neck and shoulder annealed.

We have had time to do 23 loadings with no failures so far, but by firing 22 we were having a hard time opening the bolt after firing (requiring a light strike with the palm of the hand, so we trimmed and ran one full-length sizing which didn't help, after firing 23 it was still hard to lift the bolt.

5 cases full length sized and the neck and shoulder annealed.

At firing 11 we removed one case for incipient case seperation. The ring was clearly visible and the paperclip indicated a distinct ridge inside.
At firing 13 we removed another case for the same reason.
At firing 14 we removed the remaining 3 cases for the same reason.
We trimmed at 12 shots due to excessive growth, removing up to .073" of material.

5 cases full length sized and no annealing. (FL only)

At firing 12 we noticed one case with a case mouth crack which lasted until firing 15 when it grew enough to no longer be able to hold a bullet.
At firing 16 we failed one for incipient case seperation with light visible through a portion.
At firing 17 we removed 2 cases for incipient case seperation.
At firing 19 we removed the final case for incipient case seperation.
We trimmed at 12 shots due to growth and removed up to .038" of material.

So for the full length resized with annealing we got an average of 13.2 firings case life.

For the full length resized with NO annealing we got an average of 16.8 firings which is about 27% longer life and much less growth in length.

Pics to follow.

One side note: out of the 1000 Wolf primers we were using we encountered one that had the anvil improperly installed leading to failure to fire. Upon inspection we noted the anvil was put in backwards.

 

[CountryBoy19]

So for the full length resized with annealing we got an average of 13.2 firings case life.

For the full length resized with NO annealing we got an average of 16.8 firings which is about 27% longer life and much less growth in length.

Pics to follow.

I'll just go ahead and throw out my theory on why the non-annealed brass lasted longer in the FL sizing test.

When the gun is fired, the cartridge expands rearward toward the bolt-face, stretching the brass near the head. This is why we get incipient case head separation. In our tests, when sizing the non-annealed cases, because the neck/shoulder were much harder, the sizing die bumped the shoulder straight back, keep more material in the wall of the case where the separation normally occurs. However, on the annealed cases, because the neck/shoulder were softer, the shoulder didn't get bumped straight back like in the non-annealed cases. Rather, the brass flowed through the die to move the shoulder back. This is why we saw almost 2X the growth in OAL on the annealed vs. the non-annealed. Because the non-annealed brass was being pushed back into place more, the heads didn't separate as fast. Supported by our data on the number of firings each lasted.

One side note: out of the 1000 Wolf primers we were using we encountered one that had the anvil improperly installed leading to failure to fire. Upon inspection we noted the anvil was put in backwards.

Just to add a note about this. I have encountered this before with Wolf LRM primers. I had two primers like this both in the same sleeve of 100 a couple years ago. It appears that Wolf may have some small issues with getting the anvil in the right way 100% of the time. But none-the-less, if you look at all of your primers before priming you shouldn't have a problem. This is the only real problem I've even encountered with Wolf primers. I will still use them.

 

[Yeah]

This is good stuff. I and some friends took a similar look at annealing and found more or less the same results across several different chamberings.

I'd not have expected so much difference between the FL and neck groups, but yet more evidence that moving more brass than absolutely necessary is a bad idea.

 

[kludge]

And your annealing process was ???

 

[Broom_jm]

This is a really great thread and after all the work done by the two guys who ran this extensive test, I would really like to see what their specific conclusions were.

It looks to me like neck-sizing extends case life, period. Annealing cases that were neck-sized only is the one test that does not seem to have been pursued to 100% failure. Given how long the first test ran, and the supposition that annealing "might" make brass last even longer, I can't say I blame the guys for stopping after 23 firings. If annealing increases case life even 20%, does that mean one of the pieces of brass will last for 180 firings, instead of "only" 150?!

Another observation is that it appears F/L sizing every time, no matter what else you do, cuts case life considerably. This test suggests to me that annealing, even if it DOES extend brass life, may not be indicated: If I can get 50, 75, 100 firings or more from a single piece of brass, without annealing, why would I bother?

I would very much like to see the final piece of this puzzle completed, although I'm sure that's a daunting thought to the two guys doing the testing. How long will brass last that is neck-sized only and annealed every 5th firing? I can't imagine it lasting a whole lot longer than the brass in the control group, but after doing every other test to 100% failure, it would be a shame not to see this thing through.

I'd even throw a pound of powder and a box of bullets your way, as a means of facilitating the last phase of testing, if that will help?

Jason

 

[shibumiseeker]

I'll let CountryBoy19 answer the question about the annealing process as that was his specialty.

Broom_jm, we're not done with the test yet, it's just life got in the way. We are using CountryBoy19's rifle and he went downrange for several months. It was hard enough for us to get together before then just because of the mismatch in our schedules. We'll get it finished one of these days, it's not been dropped. I'm too much of a scientist to let an experiment with this much investment not get finished

Yes, neck sizing only dramatically extends rifle case life, every single brass life test I've conducted with every caliber I can neck size for (since it requires a bolt action rifle) has shown that. I've not had brass that's been neck-sized last less than an average of 50 loadings and most last much more, and every test I've done with full-length resizing when fired from a bolt action, lasts about 15 or so loadings. They last even less when fired from a semiauto. I don't do test-until-failure with semiautos since I don't care to deal with case separation.

My personal policy is that for calibers I have both a semiauto and a bolt action is that I generally do about 5 loadings with full length resizing and shoot those through my semi, and then that brass gets dedicated to my bolt action rifle and shot until failure.

 

[CountryBoy19]

I'll let CountryBoy19 answer the question about the annealing process as that was his specialty.

I have a brass annealing machine that I use to anneal my brass. It's a work in progress that I've decided not to refine until we get the final answer. I may never finish it based upon the results so far. It will work sufficiently for the uses I would still use it for (forming wildcats etc). Anyways, I digress, enough about the machine and more about the process. I use scrap brass of similar caliber (and head stamp if possible) to "calibrate" the cycle time of the machine to anneal to the right temperature. The right temperature is determined by a visual check of the brass during and after annealing. You want to get it just up to the point where it gets that slight visible bluish haze on the brass but not so high you burn off the zinc. With practice it's pretty easy to determine this range, but it still can take just a bit of fine tuning to find it when setting up the machine, hence why I set it up with scrap brass.

We used the machine for the first 2 cycles of annealing but found that it was a tedious process to light the torches, re-check the calibration, and get things going for 10 pieces of brass. After those first 2 cycles we started annealing the brass individually. That process was done by putting an individual case in a case holder on a drill and spinning it in the flame until the necessary color was achieve on the brass. This is not as accurate as the automated machine, but I believe it is accurate enough to provide us with "reasonable evidence" to answer the ago old question that we're trying to answer here.

Broom_jm, we're not done with the test yet, it's just life got in the way. We are using CountryBoy19's rifle and he went downrange for several months. It was hard enough for us to get together before then just because of the mismatch in our schedules. We'll get it finished one of these days, it's not been dropped. I'm too much of a scientist to let an experiment with this much investment not get finished

As shibumiseeker said, this isn't dead, just put on hold for a while. I just got back in country a few weeks ago from my deployment and I have a ton of things to catch up on around the house. I'm thinking that we can probably pick back up on this sometime in the next 3-4 weeks if we can get our schedules to mix and my wife will let me out of her sight.

 

[Broom_jm]

As shibumiseeker said, this isn't dead, just put on hold for a while. I just got back in country a few weeks ago from my deployment and I have a ton of things to catch up on around the house. I'm thinking that we can probably pick back up on this sometime in the next 3-4 weeks if we can get our schedules to mix and my wife will let me out of her sight.

First of all, thank you for your service to God and Country. Your efforts are what allows us to enjoy these freedoms, including the right to own and bear arms. Take care of things at home before you worry about any of this stuff. What the two of you have already done speaks volumes about the benefits of neck-sizing;

I'm not sure annealing will make that much of a difference. It's not like I really "need" to get more than 50 or 100 firings from each piece of brass.