New to me rifle factory ammo case bulge question

[djones]

A few weeks ago I ran across this used JM stamped 1990s production 336. I am very excited. The action is very smooth with a few dings in the wood. It is the bottom rifle chambered in 35 rem. The top is my Remington manufactured 45-70 GBL.

I couldn't find any brass for 35 Remington so I went and bought a box of leverevolution 200 grn ftx. I took the rifle to the range and shot some of the best groups for me with iron sights.

50 yards

Then I inspected the cases. Almost every one the primers had been set back out of the pocket. I thought that was weird. Then I noticed case bulge on half of the case.

And flat on the other half of the case.

The velocities were from 2113 to 2154.

My questions are:
Is this just hot factory stuff and I have nothing to worry about?
Do I have a loose chamber on one side?
Can I use this brass for reloading?

Thanks for the help.

DJones

 

[billybob44]

A few things...

If your top rifle is also in .35 Remington, try a few of the same loads+see if brass comes out the same.

Remember that Lever guns are NOT known for having "tight" chambers. Most will be "Loose" with a Go/No Go chamber gage. With a good die set the brass will size back to specs.

Another thing may be the load themselvs. You may try some standard .35 Rem. Win. or Remington loads. I DO know that the brass is shorter on the Hornady Flex Tip loads in .44Mag. for the proper crimp on their bullets??...Bill.

 

[Leo]

I think you are worrying where there is nothing to worry about. The brass is really thick at the head, where it gets thinner, it will naturally expand a little more. The case is SUPPOSED to expand some to seal the pressure and spring back slightly so you can extract it, the case is really a gasket at the point of discharge. If it chambers, shoots and extracts and you are not splitting cases, all is good. In the chambering specs there is a +/- tolerance. If the brass had a zero gap fit with the chamber, you would not be able to chamber a round and you would have to wait for the rifle to cool to extract it. As long as it is inside of tolerance you are good. Looks like a nice rifle. Enjoy it.

PS. Hornady brass is a little on the soft side.

 

[kludge]

Thanks for posting velocities. I've always wondered what the factory FTX loads would do in a a real rifle.

Nice looking rifle, btw.

 

[jwh20]

Since you don't really know the history of this rifle, you may want to have a gunsmith inspect the chamber just to be safe. I think it's a little odd that the case bulges on one side only. It seems to me that any bulge due to normal clearances would tend to be uniform all around the case.

It's possible that there was something in that rifle's past that damaged the chamber. A gunsmith should be able to tell you if it's normal or a safety issue.

 

[rvb]

The bulging doesn't look terribly excessive to me, but I am not familiar with these rifles or calibers, so I'll defer on that.

I think it's a little odd that the case bulges on one side only. It seems to me that any bulge due to normal clearances would tend to be uniform all around the case.

If you look at your brass from just about any firearm, you'll see the brass has most likely expanded on just one side. The cartridge never sits perfectly aligned in a chamber. Pressure from the extractor (and spring loaded ejector if applicable) holds the head of the cartridge to one side of the chamber and during firing the case will expand into the opposite side of the chamber.

What concerns me is the primers being set back out of the pocket. That could be a sign of excessive headspace. the cartridge is held forward by the spring-loaded ejector on the bolt (if so equiped) and the impact from the firing pin so that when it fires, if there is free space behind the cartrdige, that could be why you are seeing the primers back out, and could be overworking your brass.

Again, Im not familiar with these rifles or calibers, so if that's normal someone can correct me, but that doesn't sound normal. Since that seemed unusual to you, as well, for that reason I would consider getting the chamber inspected.

-rvb

ps: these were factory rounds, correct? not reloads where you could be pushing the shoulders back too far? do you have a case gauge?

-rvb

 

[jwh20]

If you look at your brass from just about any firearm, you'll see the brass has most likely expanded on just one side. The cartridge never sits perfectly aligned in a chamber. Pressure from the extractor (and spring loaded ejector if applicable) holds the head of the cartridge to one side of the chamber and during firing the case will expand into the opposite side of the chamber.

Ok, that sounds like a reasonable explanation to me. I was thinking that the pressure inside the case would tend to "inflate" the brass much like blowing up a balloon inside a piece of pipe. The balloon expands and tends to center itself until it's in contact all the way around. But there could be other effects in a rifle chamber that I've not considered.

What concerns me is the primers being set back out of the pocket. That could be a sign of excessive headspace.

I assume by this you mean that the round end up too far forward in the chamber and it leaves a gap between the back of the round and the primer and the bolt face. So when the round fires the primer is not supported by the bolt face and get pushed out a bit until it runs into the bolt face.

 

[djones]

Wow, one never does stop learning. Thanks guys. You are all a wealth of information!

Yes this was factory ammo.

DJones

 

[SSE]

I would bet money that someone ws reloading for that rifle and overcharged the rounds. too much pressure, bulged chamber.

 

[Broom_jm]

I would bet money that someone ws reloading for that rifle and overcharged the rounds. too much pressure, bulged chamber.

If you went back and actually READ the OP...you'd find that you would lose that bet.

My first question would be: Do the cases run fairly smoothly through a FL resizing die, with no undue pressure required to put 'em back to good? If not, then there is nothing to see here...proceed as per normal and be grateful you have a rifle that is capable of good accuracy.

 

[djones]

My first question would be: Do the cases run fairly smoothly through a FL resizing die, with no undue pressure required to put 'em back to good?

I hope to find out Saturday. Thanks for the input!

 

[rvb]

I assume by this you mean that the round end up too far forward in the chamber and it leaves a gap between the back of the round and the primer and the bolt face. So when the round fires the primer is not supported by the bolt face and get pushed out a bit until it runs into the bolt face.

Yes, excessive headspace means just what it says, too much room at the head of the case in the chamber (the chamber is cut too long). Usually, as the case stretches to fill this excessive headspace, the result is case head separations, especially after a couple of reloadings on the brass. The brass gets stretched thin and lets go.

These calibers are a bit unique in the pressures they reach are lower, so they may behave a little differently? It seems the primer is being pushed back, but the case is not stretching to the bolt face. Looking at hodgdons loading data, the .35 Rem max pressures are more similar to 9mm than .223 (33k vs 53k).

I think by seeing the primers back out you may be getting a very lucky warning sign. If this rifle was in a higher pressure firearm, you may be seeing case head separations by now (big boom at the wrong end of the gun).

Q For the OP: How much are the primers pushed back? A couple thousanths (probably no big deal)? Several hundredths? a tenth? A quick search through brownells and I don't see any go/no gauges for .35 Rem...

The other possibility is that it is the ammo, not the chamber. You could try different factory ammo, putting the ammo in a case gauge, or trying the ammo in a different gun to help troubleshoot.

-rvb

 

[djones]

The primers are backed out a few thou. I went to measure the day after shooting and they seemed to not be backed out as far as the day I shot them.

I will load up some milder loads working up to hotter and will keep an eye out for these pressure&headspace signs.

Midway has a no go gauge for $28 bucks. It would indicate if the chamber is oversized. I need to pay back my savings account for the rifle before I can buy a headspace gauge for it!

I appreciate everyone's input!

Thank you

 

[Leo]

There is no way the chamber could be swelled oversized from too hot of loads. The Chamber is in the barrel, the barrel in the action. The 4140 Chrome Moly steel (or other alloys just as hard) will not squish from over pressure, they would break, The barrel cannot break without hurting the reciever.

Because of how the Lever guns work, basically overcentering a part to make a lock up, they will generally be a little sloppy, as least as compaired to a bolt action. If your primer setback has to be measured with a caliper, you are probably ok. I have seen a Winchester 30/30 that had a bent bolt lever spit out the primer almost 1/2 way.

 

[djones]

I full length resized with ease. I also partially seated a spent primer in a full length resized piece of brass. I then chambered the brass with the partially inserted primer. I cycled the action and inspected the case. The face of the bolt fully seated the spent primer. I'm thinking that everything may be just fine. I will update after hitting the range.

 

[rvb]

I full length resized with ease. I also partially seated a spent primer in a full length resized piece of brass. I then chambered the brass with the partially inserted primer. I cycled the action and inspected the case. The face of the bolt fully seated the spent primer. I'm thinking that everything may be just fine. I will update after hitting the range.

One of the possibilities I suggested was that the factory ammo may have had the shoulders back too far (ie it could be the ammo, not the chamber). This is why a case gauge would be helpful.

-rvb

 

[Broom_jm]

I'm looking forward to hearing the final - final on this one.

 

[djones]

I'm looking forward to hearing the final - final on this one.

I should hit the range soon and will let you know what I find out. I would like to lay this to rest also!

I've worked up some hornady and Remington brass cased loads with leverevolution powder and 200 FTX bullets....oh yeah and some 45-70s!

 

[JILY]

NICE!

 

[Broom_jm]

I love seeing 'em all lined up in pretty little rows, like that.