NFA Trust lawyers sticky

[Steve B]

As I'm currently looking and not having much luck I might add. We need a sticky for lawyers that work with NFA trusts in Indiana.

 

[mjrducky]

Well after using the search function I found this thread that went over the topic.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...ng_for_a_good_nfa_trust_lawer_the_of_ind.html

 

[Scutter01]

As I'm currently looking and not having much luck I might add. We need a sticky for lawyers that work with NFA trusts in Indiana.

Thanks for volunteering to put the list together! As soon as you're done, we'll sticky it.

 

[Steve B]

Well after using the search function I found this thread that went over the topic.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...ng_for_a_good_nfa_trust_lawer_the_of_ind.html

More like it broke down and went amuck. Not much of anything worth while in it.

Thanks for volunteering to put the list together! As soon as you're done, we'll sticky it.

If I had a list I wouldn't have asked the question. I also would have offered to help someone who was trying to figure it out. My thought was that there has to be people who have done this in Indiana. I kind of thought this was one of the things this site was for. Hoosier gun owners helping other hoosier gun owners. Now I know there's no such thing as a NFA trust lawyer and it's just a term used to describe what people are looking for. A lawyer that can do a trust involving NFA items. So what's so hard about making a sticky that simply helps others locate a lawyer that knows what we're looking to do and can help? If you have set up a trust to include NFA items, where was the lawyer located, contact info, and cost involved.

 

[Scutter01]

So what's so hard about making a sticky that simply helps others locate a lawyer that knows what we're looking to do and can help?

There's nothing hard about making a sticky, but you seem to be asking everyone else to do the work for you. We don't currently have a list like that to sticky, so I recommended that you make one. Who else should do it if not you?

I kind of thought this was one of the things this site was for. Hoosier gun owners helping other hoosier gun owners.

That's exactly what INGO is for, but it sounds like what you REALLY meant was "Hoosier gun owners helping me."

 

[jedi]

Steve B as you can read/see from the other thread pthat was pointed out there is no such list as the moment becuase even the resident ATTYs and members on INGO that have gone the trsut route have no consenses on how it shoudl work.

Worse of all (from a legal and everyone else point of view) none of the NFA trust that we know of in Indiana have yet to be put to the test in terms of being used so none of us know if they will hold up or not. So we are swimming in grey water right now.

 

[Steve B]

Scutter01: So the site is here to get help but if I ask for that help it's wrong. I should go out and figure it out for myself. Then what? If someone else asks, tell them I'd like to help but they should go figure it out for themselves because I had to? With a thought process like that then we should tell new shooters to go to the range and figure it out for themselves and not offer them any guidance.

jediagh: Thanks for the input. At least your input had some value to the topic. After searching several forums and talking to multiple attorneys, not one so far can answer this.

 

[mjrducky]

not one so far can answer this.

Which is basically why there hasn't been a Sticky or anyone to provide the easy answer to your question.....

Please let us all know if you find a "good" answer that could be used to start the list....

 

[Steve B]

Yeah, it would suck to make more headaches for the wife when I die instead of less. I really thought I wouldn't have more than the m10 & suppressor. Now I've found I have a fondness for suppressors. There's another one on the way and I'm already looking at 2 more. It's a slippery slope.

 

[T.Lex]

Ok. I've done some early research on getting into this niche.

If I decide to get into this, it will be because I have a thorough understanding of the WHOLE process. I am fortunate to:
a) be in a firm with some of the best attorneys in Indiana, including trust attorneys;
b) know people who know about Class III/NFA stuff.

It seems to me that there is a market being underserved, and as a capitalist, I hate that.

If someone is interested in helping me - ideally with trusts they've used (written by attorneys) or their experience in using trusts to get class III toys, please PM me. Also, if someone has a US Code or CFR cite for the class III/trust rules, that would be great, too. Save me some research.

No idea what the cost would be, and no idea what the timeline will be for me to get involved in this.

Thanks.

 

[JoshuaW]

Lex, it sounds like you are going to be doing "better" trust if you go through with this, but it may be worth looking at one of the trusts from guntrustlawyer.net. I have no clue what kind of voodoo lawyers do, and their willingness to share the magic, so I'm not sure how much help that will be. If I recall, there was a member that had one done from him. It was sent to a lawyer in Granger to be reviewed, then mailed to him. If you search hard enough you might be able to find that thread and track the member down.

 

[T.Lex]

I think I'm about 2/3 of the way to being comfortable doing these. I still need to meet with people within the firm regarding trusts, but that doesn't look too complicated.

If someone has a lawyer-made NFA trust, we can talk about reviewing it/updating it.

 

[JoshuaW]

It may still be a little early in the game for this, but do you have a ballpark figure for the cost Lex? I'm taking very general, I have no idea how much time goes into a trust of any sort, or how much a normal trust would cost.

 

[Westside]

It may still be a little early in the game for this, but do you have a ballpark figure for the cost Lex? I'm taking very general, I have no idea how much time goes into a trust of any sort, or how much a normal trust would cost.

^^^^^^ This.


And when you get 100% comfortable You should advertise your firm here stating you do NFA trusts. I bet you would get a lot of business.

 

[T.Lex]

Thanks, guys.

I can't really ballpark it right now, since I haven't talked to the guy who knows the trust part. I'm pretty comfortable with the ATF regs, but the "hard" part will be creating the document that takes care of it. Whatever it costs, it will be done to a high quality, with as much "full-service" as I can provide.

Ideally, I'll get permission to offer either a flat fee or an hourly. Problem with the flat fee, though, is that I won't necessarily know how long it will take before doing a bunch.

My goal is to NOT price myself out of the market, though! That kinda defeats the purpose!

 

[Eddie]

I'll just throw this out there:

I've been doing trusts for over a decade and I have done a handful of "NFA" trusts.

 

[jedi]

I'll just throw this out there:

I've been doing trusts for over a decade and I have done a handful of "NFA" trusts.

Have any of those trust been put to use yet? Meaning has the owner dies and the trust been executed (ie. used to transfer the Class III items to whom ever they are going to)?

I think that is the critical item that we all agreed on when looking/debating/talking about this thread. It's not so much that we can't find an ATTY who can do a trust, can add CLASS III language to the trust, but more that we have no proof/documentation that when the trust is put to the test (ie. in court, by ATF) that it will indeed hold up. I suspect that as soon as ATTY JOHN DOE can show here is an example of a trust I did that indeed went thru the test and passed that ATTY JOHN DOE is going to have a line from here to the moon and back.

 

[T.Lex]

That is an interesting point, but strikes me as odd. Most things attorneys draft aren't ever litigated. And an NFA trust like this hasn't specifically been litigated in Indiana, or anywhere else as far as I can tell. In fact, part of the reason for using a trust is to technically avoid court when someone dies anyway.

Let me put it a different way. You are more likely to hear about the first one that DOESN'T work than any that "do" work. That guntrustlawyer blog had a couple links to cases that the ATF decided someone's computer-generated trust didn't pass muster, but that's all I could find. And that's different.

It seems to me the ATF lawyers are going to be unwilling to go after an attorney-drafted trust because the ATF guys don't likely know much about trusts anyway.

 

[aclark]

I think I will be subscribing to this. I have been wanting to get into some NFA toys, but want to allow my family to enjoy them with me. Therefore I wanted to use a trust. Please keep us updated on how your trust is looking, and what the other guys in your firm think. Also, prices ideas would be a huge plus.

 

[Eddie]

That is an interesting point, but strikes me as odd. Most things attorneys draft aren't ever litigated. And an NFA trust like this hasn't specifically been litigated in Indiana, or anywhere else as far as I can tell. In fact, part of the reason for using a trust is to technically avoid court when someone dies anyway.

Let me put it a different way. You are more likely to hear about the first one that DOESN'T work than any that "do" work. That guntrustlawyer blog had a couple links to cases that the ATF decided someone's computer-generated trust didn't pass muster, but that's all I could find. And that's different.

It seems to me the ATF lawyers are going to be unwilling to go after an attorney-drafted trust because the ATF guys don't likely know much about trusts anyway.

Correct.

And as far as I can tell the ones done using Quicken that did not qualify were because the Settlor made himself both Trustee and Beneficiary. The real work is in creating the trust, the NFA stuff is easy.

T. Lex hit upon the important factor; trusts are meant to be private. If someone is drafting trusts that are ending up in appellate court, is that the person you want to go to?