Nightmare scenario Part 1. What would you do?

[03mustgt]

As has been said, even at say 25, it's going to take some distance to stop your vehicle. My truck is no 'Vette, so I'd gun it and get some distance between me and the gunfire. Pull off the road and lose some elevation, if possible. Grab the cell and call 911 giving them the best description possible. AS soon as possible, I'd be reaching for my Kel Tec SUB2K and getting it unfolded and ready to return fire. If time permitted, I"d get in the back seat and grab my little chest rig that's set up with six 15 round .40 cal mags. Depending on the situation and available cover, I'd try and eek closer to observe/help out. I carry a small pair of binocs in my truck for looking at wild game, but they might come in handy for a situation like this.

I'd like to say I'd stomp the gas and ram the guy in the flannel. But at midnight at 25mph, how can you really be sure, dead sure, who's the bad guy and who's the good guy. yes, most of us want to do the right thing and be a hero, but what if there's some odd situation and it's an off duty cop pulling someone over for reasons we don't know. If you can positively ID who's who, it's a different story. Either way, I doubt your insurance will pay for you totalling your car by using it as a weapon and if you think a podunk town has money to buy you a new truck because you were a good samaritan, well, I bet you're wrong!

Doug K

That would be the last thing on my mind.

 

[KillStick]

I would indeed call the police and report everything but if I am not threatened or anyone with me is not threatened, I will in no way be getting involved. Something like this usually turns south very quickly. Not only does getting involved make you a new risk but you are also held liable for your actions. My heart would tell me get out and help the cop, but my mind would defiantly say no don't do it. I understand the need or feeling of helping a fellow man but I don't consider this a self defense situation when I am the one initiating the threat to the so called bad guy.

 

[JoshuaW]

Im not slowing down to a near stop near the gun fight, to slam it in reverse. I am putting my foot to the floor, dropping down a gear, and getting a few hundred yards ahead. After that, I am calling 911 and telling them what happened. If either car pulls away, I am going to try my best to get a better description and hopefully a license plate number.

What I am not doing is firing a single shot, unless I get forced into the fight. There is no need for that, and I am not getting myself killed. Furthermore, I am not accidentally shooting a LEO or putting the final shot into the LEO's wife's lover. I dont know the circumstance, I dont know who is who, and I dont want blood on my hands. If I somehow was able to identify the LEO, and he was injured or obviously outgunned, I MIGHT attempt some heroism, but only because I dont want to regret that one time I let a LEO get killed after he asked for my help.

 

[jsharmon7]

Dialing 911 would be one of the first things I'd do, but I would be wondering how all of this started. Plain clothes + unmarked unit = no traffic stops. Hopefully our hero was a good boy and marked out on whatever it was he got into and the cavalry is coming. If not, then is this a road rage situation? Someone recognized him and is trying to kill him? If this is out of my jurisdiction and I don't know him then I'm staying out of it until marked units come on scene. Maybe backing up so as not to add more confusion to responding on-duty units would be wise. I sure don't want to leave an LEO hanging but I could just as easily shoot him as the bad guy if I don't know who is who. Now, if by some miracle I recognize who is who, then I'm putting my truck's big engine block between me and bad guy and emptying some magazines.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Plow through and hope I hit both of them because I recognize the guy in the suit as the jerk who had 13 items before me in the 12 items or less line at the grocery store and the other as the officer who forcefully disarmed me at gunpoint while legally OC'ing.

What would I really do in the scenario? It is hard to say. The guy running from the truck isn't guaranteed to be the "BG" as he could be the officer. It could be an innocent bystander. It could be a second tango. People driving undercover vehicles could presumably be wearing anything. I would like to think that I would stop and help but the undercover might fire and kill me for trying to assist him.

Sounds like a no-win for everyone.

Not weighing in on this one, but just FYI: In Indiana, for an officer to make a legitimate traffic stop, either he must be in a marked unit or he must be in full uniform.

For immediate release: Nov 03, 2009
Posted by: [ISP]
Contact: Sgt. Rich Myers
Phone: (765) 653-4114 OR (800) 225-8576
Email: rmyers@isp.in.gov

Indiana State Police Offer Safety Tips for Traffic Stops

Everyday in Indiana there are hundreds if not thousands of traffic stops that are performed by legitimate law enforcement officials performing their sworn duty. On a very rare occasion, a person impersonating a police enforcement officer comes to the attention of law enforcement and the public after performing a bogus traffic stop or falsely representing themselves as a public servant.
Indiana code 35-44-2-3 states: A person who falsely represents that the person is a public servant, with intent to mislead and induce another person to submit to false official authority or otherwise to act to the other person's detriment in reliance on the false representation, commits impersonation of a public servant, a Class A misdemeanor. However, a person who falsely represents that the person is:
1. a law enforcement officer; or
2. an agent or employee of the department of state revenue, and collects any property from another person; commits a Class D felony
Remember, a law enforcement officer cannot make a traffic stop for a traffic infraction in an unmarked vehicle unless they are in full uniform. A law enforcement officer can make a traffic stop for traffic infractions in civilian clothes only if they are operating a fully marked police car.
The following are some tips if you are questionable about the person attempting to stop you:

• Stop in a well lighted and populated area
• Only roll your window down enough so you can communicate (one or two inches)
• Ask for the officer's identification (even if they are wearing something that has "police or sheriff' on it)
• Do not leave your vehicle unless your are sure the person is a ligament officer
• Call 911 and give the dispatcher your location
• If you do not think you should stop, drive the speed limit with the emergency flashers on to attract attention. Proceed safely to location where you feel comfortable or until you observe a second police car.

Link to this event: http://www.in.gov/portal/news_events/43875.htm

[noparse]Indiana State Police Offer Safety Tips for Traffic Stops Nov 03, 2009 content_id:73407B512A2047EA93ED69C227B203E2; typeress; agency:ISP; showOnHomepage:; sortDate:Nov 03, 2009; filterDate:200911; isBanner:no; agencyDivision:ISP;11 - November;2009;Press Release;Show on Home[/noparse]

(emphasis mine)

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Bapak2ja]

I do not have enough data to make a decision on who is the bad guy and who is the good guy. I clear the area. If the LEO can identify himself, and advise me of what I can do to help, I will do it. I am not getting involved in a firefight with people whom I do not know. Too many things can go wrong, such as:

1. LEO misunderstands my intentions and opens up on me.
2. BG understands correctly and opens up on me.
3. I misunderstand the situation and open up on the LEO, or interfere with the LEO and allow BG to escape, leading to my arrest for aiding/abetting or obstruction.
4. I understand the situation, open up on the BG to help the LEO and kill the BG. I get arrested for murder or sued in civil court for negligent homicide.
5. i mistakenly shoot the cop, get arrested for it and then get sued in civil court for injuring a LEO. Of course the LEO union will pay the legal fees for the cop to sue me.

I can think of many more things that could happen in this scenario—none of them positive. If the LEO is any good, he will have back upon the way. I clear the area, call 911, wait for back up at a safe distance. When the shooting is over, I may be able to help with the wounded.

 

[randyb]

I do not have enough data to make a decision on who is the bad guy and who is the good guy. I clear the area. If the LEO can identify himself, and advise me of what I can do to help, I will do it. I am not getting involved in a firefight with people whom I do not know. Too many things can go wrong, such as:

1. LEO misunderstands my intentions and opens up on me.
2. BG understands correctly and opens up on me.
3. I misunderstand the situation and open up on the LEO, or interfere with the LEO and allow BG to escape, leading to my arrest for aiding/abetting or obstruction.
4. I understand the situation, open up on the BG to help the LEO and kill the BG. I get arrested for murder or sued in civil court for negligent homicide.
5. i mistakenly shoot the cop, get arrested for it and then get sued in civil court for injuring a LEO. Of course the LEO union will pay the legal fees for the cop to sue me.

I can think of many more things that could happen in this scenario—none of them positive. If the LEO is any good, he will have back upon the way. I clear the area, call 911, wait for back up at a safe distance. When the shooting is over, I may be able to help with the wounded.

Agreed. Too many holes need to be filled. Calling 911 AFTER I secure my safety is the call at this point. Now if its a LEO I know personally then that might be different. I have two small children to raise and doing something like engaging in a a firefight with two unknown shooters doesnt sound like a smart choice. Anyone remember how the good, the bad and the ugly ended?

 

[Tryin']

what?can you explain what this means?

VUPDBlue also started a thread around the same time as this one concerning glow-in-the-dark Mountain Dew.

 

[sporter]

Go with your instinct.

 

[VUPDblue]

Now for part 2

Ok, some answers I expected to see and some I didn't. Keeping in mind how you answered this question, here is what happens next:

Depending on what your response to the situation was, you hear the following from either the folks on the scene or later on from other officers or in the newspaper:

The man in the dark suit was the driver of the car with the red and blue lights inside it. He was a police impersonator who had been stopping cars in the area lately. The man in the flannel shirt (and driver of the pickup truck) was an off-duty state police officer. The man in the suit initiated a traffic stop and approached the pickup truck, asking the driver for his ID and insurance. The driver of the pickup truck called BS, identified himself as a police officer and at that point the man in the suit pulled a gun. This is about the point in time when you pulled up on the scene, witnessing the ensuing gun battle. Now what?

 

[Arm America]

Egg on my face, yep!

 

[lovemachine]

Wow. This is why I wouldn't get involved. Way too many scenarios and factors that you don't know about.
Best bet is to call the police and keep your family safe.

 

[Slow Hand]

Shoot first, ask questions lat....ummm... Guess callin 911 and letting them know your location would be a good thing then, yeah? At least they could tell you if there was a cop in that area, right? I've always told my wife if she's got flashing lights behind her and it's not a marked car to call 911 before pulling over, no matter where she is or what's going on.

 

[Security122]

Ok, some answers I expected to see and some I didn't. Keeping in mind how you answered this question, here is what happens next:

Depending on what your response to the situation was, you hear the following from either the folks on the scene or later on from other officers or in the newspaper:

The man in the dark suit was the driver of the car with the red and blue lights inside it. He was a police impersonator who had been stopping cars in the area lately. The man in the flannel shirt (and driver of the pickup truck) was an off-duty state police officer. The man in the suit initiated a traffic stop and approached the pickup truck, asking the driver for his ID and insurance. The driver of the pickup truck called BS, identified himself as a police officer and at that point the man in the suit pulled a gun. This is about the point in time when you pulled up on the scene, witnessing the ensuing gun battle. Now what?

I dim my lights!!

 

[remymartin]

Keep on Truckin' what do I win? lol

 

[brotherbill3]

Not weighing in on this one, but just FYI: In Indiana, for an officer to make a legitimate traffic stop, either he must be in a marked unit or he must be in full uniform.

Blessings,
Bill

This is part of what I was trying to get at w/ my original post about indiana code - so if the guy is "ONLY in a suit" ... he's either impersonating (see below) - or perhaps HE was the off duty and backup was already on the way ... (or it wasn't a traffic stop) ... WAY too many possibilities to just jump in. so ... like Bapak ...

I do not have enough data to make a decision on who is the bad guy and who is the good guy. I clear the area. If the LEO can identify himself, and advise me of what I can do to help, I will do it. I am not getting involved in a firefight with people whom I do not know. Too many things can go wrong, ... I can think of many more things that could happen in this scenario — ... I clear the area, call 911, wait for back up at a safe distance. When the shooting is over, I may be able to help with the wounded.

unless somehow I can be certain of whom I'd be aiding - I'd witness and report ...

Ok, some answers I expected to see and some I didn't. Keeping in mind how you answered this question, here is what happens next:

Depending on what your response to the situation was, you hear the following from either the folks on the scene or later on from other officers or in the newspaper:

The man in the dark suit was the driver of the car with the red and blue lights inside it. He was a police impersonator who had been stopping cars in the area lately. The man in the flannel shirt (and driver of the pickup truck) was an off-duty state police officer. The man in the suit initiated a traffic stop and approached the pickup truck, asking the driver for his ID and insurance. The driver of the pickup truck called BS, identified himself as a police officer and at that point the man in the suit pulled a gun. This is about the point in time when you pulled up on the scene, witnessing the ensuing gun battle. Now what?

because of the thought of this - if i didn't know 100% for certain. ...
although if the BG is the impersonator and you can ID him - he might try the same thing on you ... so it is another good reason to clear the area ... witness and report from a distance.

or ... just wait for the end of the commercial and the program to start again.

 

[grimor]

I stand by my answer, if I recognize the car as a local PD car and the guy in the "blue suit" looks like a cop, I'm still going to ram the pickup with the guy in flannel. We can sort out the details later.

 

[kickbacked]

call in air support

 

[Rookie]

Nuke them from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

 

[VUPDblue]

I stand by my answer, if I recognize the car as a local PD car and the guy in the "blue suit" looks like a cop, I'm still going to ram the pickup with the guy in flannel. We can sort out the details later.

So the impersonator in this scenario is driving a car that is the same make and model of the local LEO cars. He is not in uniform (obviously) so there is no way to be sure that he is a LEO. You don't know that he isn't LEO, but you don't know that they guy in the flannel is a state police officer either. If the guy in the flannel dies as a result of being hit with your car, how would you feel about that? You just killed a state police officer while he was in the course of defending himself from a man with a gun.