No badge? You're NOT Welcome.

[rhino]

Before I launch my rant, I want to say two things:

1. This is not a criticism of any individual who happens to be a police officer.

2. I realize that the training opportunities for non-law enforcement civilians are greater in both number and diversity now than at any time in the past, and I appreciate it!

Given that . . .

On another public (i.e. not LEO-only) forum, I just read an announcement for yet another class that looked interesting, but it was only for cops and military. Each time I see something like that when it's obvious it's not something that should be confidential, it irritates me. It also continues to add to the ever-widening "us vs. them" attitude that exists on both sides, but is fueled far more vigorously on the LEO side (in my opinion).

How do you guys feel about LEO-only classes?

How would it be received if a class were offered, but people who are police officers were specifically disqualified?

At the very least, when something like this has restricted access (regardless of the merits thereof), the least they could do is not advertise it in places where the vast majority of readers will not be elligible to attend.

 

[Barry in IN]

Is there any possibility of there being something else going on that isn't readily apparent?

What I mean is- Why is it restricted? Is the restriction coming from the instructor, school, or from the host facility?
I've seen class announcements that were LE/Mil only and sounded like it was coming from the instructor or school. It often comes across like it was some members only club, so ha ha ha for the rest of us. But in SOME cases, it has turned out that the restriction was due to some ruling by the host facility, insurance carrier, or maybe even some goofball local law, and getting around them would be such a can of worms it wouldn't be worth the trouble.

If it IS a case of we have it and you can't get it, then yeah, screw them.

 

[jmb79]

Rhino,

I've had the same experience on several occasions and it always ticks me off. I feel unwanted, as if they (military, LEOs, etc.) think I am not worthy becasue I am a "mere" civilian, when I know that I and many of my friends are as good shooters as any of them.

That said, I don't think these restrictions are necessarily imposed because the decision maker(s) believe civilians are less competent shooters. Sometimes the training is held on LEO or military ranges that are off limits to civilians (which raises other questions of course). Or perhaps they don't want "us" to learn all their secret tactical skill sets (or the high speed, low drag secret squirrrrl handshakes).

In any event, yes, it pisses me off!

 

[IDCC]

That was my post. I try to post all Indiana firearms training classes that I receive info on. ITOTA sent me an email and there are some IN Tactical officers/Mil on that site as well as here, 10-8 and M4C that could take advantage of it.

It's been deleted

 

[bigcraig]

rhino, I saw the announcement and I knew it would prompt this response from you.

And as usual, I agree with you.

Craig

 

[pierce195]

Rhino,

Sorry, I know most goverment owned ranges are limited by insurance companys.

You also know that cops are the best marksman. (LOL). You are more than welcome to shoot with me about our FOP range anytime.

 

[4sarge]

Rhino,

Sorry, I know most government owned ranges are limited by insurance company's.

You also know that cops are the best marksman. (LOL). You are more than welcome to shoot with me about our FOP range anytime.

Same here, City Insurance Provider would not allow anyone but sworn officers to shoot on the pistol range. They claimed it was a liability issue that they would not cover for non sworn participants. Have you inquired of why it is a closed session. It might not hurt to ask

 

[IDCC]

Tactical Firearms Combination Course (3 day):
This course is designed to utilize all weapons systems used by the entry operator. Course
of instruction will include using tactical handgun, sub-gun, carbine and shotgun.
Course length: 3 days
Dates: May 27- May 29 2008
Location: Indiana Law Enforcement Academy
County Road 700 E, Plainfield, Indiana, 46168
Phone: (317) 839-5191
Facility used: Firearms range
Class size: 24
Course cost:
1. ITOTA members: $285.00
2. Non Members: $350.00
Pre-requisites:
1. Sworn Tactical, Law Enforcement officer in an “on duty” capacity.
2. Tactical medic in an “on duty” capacity with prior SWAT and CQB training.
3. Active duty Military in an “on duty” capacity.
4. Sworn Tactical, Corrections officer in an “on duty” capacity.
Lead Instructor:
The lead instructor for this course is a decorated, recently retired ('08) Sergeant Major
from the US Army's top counter-terrorism unit. He has over 21 years of active service
which includes extensive CT and combat experience. Prior to his retirement, the Sergeant
Major served 10 war-time deployments including multiple tours in Afghanistan and Iraq.
He's conducted hundreds of real-world CQB and sniper CT operations in multiple hostile
environments on a wide range of target profiles. As an active duty Sergeant Major and
sniper element leader, he was recognized in the SOF community as a weapon's subject
matter expert in both operational use and technical knowledge of arms, optics,
suppressors and ammunition. As senior sniper for his unit, he was responsible for all
sniper weapons, equipment and Tactics, Techniques & Procedures (TTP) development in
the War On Terror. The Sergeant Major has introduced cutting-edge operational
concepts, equipment and SOPs to his former unit, US Special Operations Command and
the greater conventional sniping community.
Gear requirements:
500 rounds of ammo per weapon system. Complete tactical gear/ kit including; wrap
around eye and ear protection, ballistic helmet and vest, hydration system, head cover and
rain gear.
Day 1: Pistol
• Introduction/ background/ determine levels of experience within class.
• Equipment inspection (duty gear) / CQB gear configuration discussion
• Zero confirmation
• Fundamentals of pistol marksmanship refresher
• Misc. Drills (1 shot, 2 shot, etc)
• Combat reloads
• Tactical reloads
• Multiple targets
• Shooting while moving
• Target discrimination
• Strong hand only
• Weak hand only
• Alternate positions
Day 2: SMG / Carbine
• Equipment inspection (duty rigs) / CQB gear configuration discussion
• Sighting options
• Fundamentals of SMG / Carbine marksmanship refresher
• Zero confirmation (optics and iron sights)
• Misc. Drills (1 shot, 2 shot, etc)
• Back-up sights
• Combat reloads
• Tactical reloads
• Multiple targets
• Shooting while moving
• Target discrimination
• Strong side
• Weak side
• Alternate positions
• Night firing with sights, lights and lasers
• Use of vehicles for cover
Day 3: Combination Pistol/ SMG /Carbine
• Transitions
• Barriers
• Long range pistol/SMG contingency shots (50 to 100 m/y)
• Competition drill / event (if desired)
• Exterior & Terminal ballistics / ammunition selection discussion
ITOTA Or call us at:
PO Box 3446 (812) 878-SWAT
Terre Haute, In. 47803
Only 24 slots available! Payment in advance is required to hold your seat. Cancellations
must be done in writing within 30 days prior to the first day of the conference without
penalty. No shows, without canceling in writing, forfeits registration fees

 

[rhino]

That was my post. I try to post all Indiana firearms training classes that I receive info on. ITOTA sent me an email and there are some IN Tactical officers/Mil on that site as well as here, 10-8 and M4C that could take advantage of it.

It's been deleted

Your message was in fact what prompted this topic, but it's only a drop in a very large bucket! I see that you want to communicate with as many elligible potential students as possible, but I hope you see my point too.

What you others guys have said about range and insurance restrictions certainly makes sense. Given that the current example (graciously reproduced above) is at the academy, perhaps that is a factor in that case.

On the other hand, we all know that the range is not always resticted and that it's not always some kind of insurance issue. Frequently (if not most of the time), it's simple an example of an exclusive mindset, and one that I think has an increasingly negative impact on cop <--> non-cop relations. Those who might suffer the most are those police officers who do NOT share the same attitude, but will be inevitably guilty by association.

In a lot of cases, it's not even the specific class. It's the principle and the message it sends. That is why what Ken Campbell does at the Boone County range is so valuable and commendable ... he goes out of his way to make as many classes as possible are inclusive. I think that's good for all of us on both "sides."

pierce195 ... thanks for the invitation! Sooner or later you'll see me in your neck of the woods. I'll see you in a couple of weeks at RileyCC too.

 

[AKsteve]

Otherwise known as Delta? Reading over the curriculum it sounds like a bad ass class.

Sergeant Major
from the US Army's top counter-terrorism unit.

 

[pierce195]

I'm trying to get my department to send me to this class. There only hold up is the price of ammo at this time. 1000 round of rifle/pistol and 500 shoot is more than the price of the class.

 

[rhino]

If they won't go for it, maybe you could get them to pay the tuition and you supply the ammo yourself? Not ideal, but better than not going.

 

[IDCC]

So almost 18 months later.... Did anyone go to the class? The LEO/MIL ONLY 3 gun match listed in the ARFCOM Indiana HTF reminded me of this thread.

 

[TFin04]

How do you guys feel about LEO-only classes?

There are very distinct differences between the presentation of weapons, use of force, tactics (I hate that word but it fits here), etc between a police officer required to go INTO the mess, and a civilian required to get himself OUT of the mess.

That said, I have no issue with LEO only classes. Allowing civilians into a class that discusses duty techniques could very well form habits for the civilian that could lead to further injury to them, or more intense litigation after the shooting since they weren't acting "reasonable" for a civilian.

Now a class only designed for gun handling and shooting skills (IE, drawing, grip, stance, movement, multiple targets, etc etc) could be considered universal across the board and could very easily be joe blow and LEO on the same line.

Just my spin.

 

[MarkR]

This has always bothered me as well. Another example is Glock Armorer training. It is only open to LEO armorers, and the application must come from your department on dept. letterhead. Even when I was an LEO, I was not allowed to attend, because I was not being sent by my dept. It wasn't an issue with Sig (I'm a certified Sig LEO armorer) but other manufacturers have closed classes. I would be more understanding if the issue was capacity, or waiting list, but it's not, as some of these classes are not full, and they still won't allow it. Oh - to be clear, it is also open to Glock distributors - but my point is that "civilians" are excluded.
It's ridiculous, and still pisses me off, to the point where I refused to purchase a glock for a very long time.

 

[HICKMAN]

This has always bothered me as well. Another example is Glock Armorer training. It is only open to LEO armorers, and the application must come from your department on dept. letterhead.

You can join GSSF for $35 and attend a Glock Armorers course.

I've was attending this years in Greenwood, but ended not being able to get off work.

 

[4sarge]

Discrimination exists even among police officers. I can speak to the facts in at least one Indiana County. The local FOP had continuing pistol shoots with the usual trophies, prizes, and prestige. There was one ISP trooper who lived in the county but was assigned to Hdqtrs in the adjacent county. This guy (don't remember his name) could out-shoot any and all comers blindfolded backward, or handcuffed. It got so bad that the local gendarmes changed the rules in the middle of the night that he could no longer qualify for the shoots because he wasn't officially assigned in that county. Remember, since it's inception the rules had always been resided in that county. So discrimination exists even among police officers.

 

[Steve MI]

Coming from that line of work. and being a trainer it does suck

some ranges and depts require it LEO/MIL only for insurance reasons
others because of its uniform thing and other because its an EGO thing.

some feel what they are going to teach you is so lethal it shouldnt be taught...(yes i have heard that one)


Also at times there are specific classes related to active shooters and schools etc and are restricted for reasons. do to specfic techniques etc... ok on that. having been in several of these classes i kind of laugh there are only so many ways to run a gun people.

and most whom is the trainer of this class/.

 

[Nobudy]

Some of these classes also expect a certain level of knowledge and experience levels walking into the class that some civilians don't have, but what they don't get is anyone interested in these type of courses already have that mind set/ training, either threw self training , civilian classes or life experiences.
I.E. proper safety while shoot and maneuver, proper jam clearing and response, Use of force levels...
They don't want Joe Smuck that just wants to blow sh*t up. So they treat the rest of us like children , "Well, you aren't ready for the big kids table yet." and pat us on the head.
I guess for me it's more of the attitude it represents more that the learning potential I'm missing.
Sorry for the rant.

 

[Sgt Rock]

The fact that it's held at the LEA in Plainfield is the first clue that it would be open to sworn pers only because the LEA is a closed range. Too bad because that's a great facility.