No Weapons sign. Morton Lake Bait Shop, Richmond Indiana

[ralphb72]

Up again for discussion a no Weapons sign on a place which caters to outdoor lovers. I tried to engage the owners in a dialog (on facebook but I will post here) and got a few answers but then they just stopped replying.

Morton Lake Bait Shop | Facebook

765.939.2248 Email: mortonlake1914@yahoo.com


Me: One day I began to come to your store one day to buy bait, and I saw a sign on the door which said Absolutely no weapons allowed, or words to that effect. Could you explain that to me please? If it is no longer there, please let me know that also. I left because of that sign and spent my money at the reservoir boat house.

Let me explain. I am a member of Richmond Conservation Club, and last i knew we get a discount at your establishment. So it seems that you support us, but on the way to the club with my boys to fish, practice archery, and try out my newest pistol for which I am was trained on during my many years in the Army, and am licensed for life by the State of Indiana, but why do you expect me to give up my right of self defense while I am at your store?

I respect your right to run your store as you see fit, and i left to go elsewhere. I would like to return my business to your store, but I need to know if that is still your policy, and if so, why is that?

Thank you.

1st owner:
Sheila Owens · 2 mutual friends
We posted that sign for our own safety!!! Nothing against guns but we have had some problems in the past with certian customers waving them around..Not to wise..We were also members of the club & have used the shooting range..To be very blunt WE DONT WANT ROBBED !!! At the same time you can bet if we are drawed upon..we will draw back cause we do have a carrying permit & exercise our rights!!Also..I just called the resevoir & they DO NOT permit it either & will be posting a notice as well..Also the sign says WEAPONS that means anything that can be used to harm us!! not only guns..

Sheila Owens · 2 mutual friends
Also i can assure everyone coming into our store that you will not be harmed by any of us while shopping..WE HAVE BEEN ROBBED BEFORE so YES we will exercise our right to keep ALL weapons out..I have also called several merchants in Richmond & NONE of them allow it either so i know im not alone. We posted that sign after the last time that we were robbed & have NEVER had one complaint.. My question is WHY do you want to bring a gun into my store??

2nd Owner:
Dave Menthol · Friends with Morton Lake Bait Shop
and on top of that there are only a choice few establishments in indiana to which you can carry a gun we just happen to be not one of them its nothing personal just safety reasons

ME:
Thank you so much for your replies, it is not my intention to start an argument, only to ascertain whether the signage I saw last year still stands, and to understand why it was put up since it is the FIRST such sign I have seen at a store. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this with you. My lunch time is very short so I will have to answer your question to me separately. It sounds like unsafe and thereby irresponsible gun owners have committed unsafe acts in your store, and criminals have robbed you (with weapons?) more than once. I believe that the unsafe gun owners should be ejected and banned permanently. I applaud you for exercising your God given and 2nd amendment confirmed rights to self defense also. I invite you all to the Indian Gun Owner's forum where I have learned much in the last few years about my rights and yours: INGunOwners - Indiana Gun Owners Community . Again, I respect your right to run your store as you see fit, and I do submit this for your reflection: That a criminal, who is intent on robbing you with a weapon, is NOT going to respect your no-weapons sign. Only those of us who are law abiding and respectful of the property rights of others are going to respect your sign. Thanks..

Sheila Owens · 2 mutual friends
they may not respect our sign on the door your right..but our tails will be covered if a wouldbe robber gets shot trying to rob us cause its posted on the door..criminals have more rights then we do so to save ourselfs a lawsuit we were advised to post it up on the door..& yes the first time we were robbed the guy had a gun..the second time the guy got stitches..

ME:
Greetings! I'm starting at the top and trying to answer your question(s) and comments back to me. I will say that I am not a lawyer, but I have spent several years educating myself in these areas. I hope that you will call your contact at the reservoir and encourage them to get the advice of the City attorney before doing something that could result in a lawsuit against the City. The reason I say that is that as a privately owned store, you are of course free to operate it as you see fit and require or restrict anything as you see desire. However, since the City of Richmond Park Department administers the recreation areas of Middlefork Reservoir, they are a government entity and fall under whole different set of rules. Just last July 1st, the State law changed and made the local government control of firearms much more restrictive. There are now a very limited amount of situations where a "Political subdivision" of the State can restrict the possession or transportation of firearms assuming that they persons involved are properly licensed. I will let you read the text for yourself, but it is quite clear that a recreation area does not meet one of the exceptions in the state law.
Indiana Code 35-47-11.1

Indiana Code 35-47-11.1
www.in.gov
IC 35-47-11.1-1 Application Sec. 1. This chapter applies to a political subdivision (as defined in IC 3-5-2-38).As added by P.L.152-2011, SEC.4.

ME again:
I am sure that being robbed at gunpoint or with any weapon is a traumatic experience, one that I would not want to repeat either. The reason I carry is that I have been in life or death situations also and I do not wish to be in one again. If I am, i hope to be armed at the time. I do not want to leave the outcome of my next experience in the hands of a criminal who wants some cash for their next fix. My wife and children rely on me for many things and coming home safely each day is first on the list. The people with whom I had my first experience were not after money, they simply wanted to kill Americans. There was no talking them out of it, or hoping they would take what they wanted and go. Closer to home, I was cornered in an alley with my two younger children, their nephew, and their two cousins. There were two of them and I was completely empty handed. No gun, no knife, no pepper spray, nothing with which to defend myself or my kids. Luckily I was able to scream and bluff my way out of it, but it could have turned out much worse. If I were in your store unarmed, and someone came in to rob it, I would be completely at their mercy. There is nowhere to go, nowhere to hide and once again I would be empty handed. Even worse, if you had someone armed there, I and my kids could end up in the middle, or as hostages or shields for the criminals. I can't take that chance and I will not be a victim.

ME:
Dave, I'm not sure what you are saying, you said there are only a few establishments to which you can carry a gun? Did you mean to which you cannot carry a gun? The list of off limits places in Indiana is not that large. Most stores and businesses are not off limits, even bars and liquor stores are not off limits in Indiana. http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/indiana.pdf

Me again (no response since initial messages from owners yet):
Sheila, If I understand you right, then, the sign was put up mostly because of unsafe gun owners, and criminals, and also to help reduce some liability should someone get killed during a criminal act. Just so that you know, Indiana law has the "Stand your ground" similar to the one everyone is talking about in Florida. In fact, our law also makes it impossible for anyone to sue you for defending yourself. I'm trying to find the exact IC for this but in the meantime here is a recent article on it: Lawmakers stand their ground on Indiana self-defense law - HSPA's Information Network - Indianapolis, IN

Lawmakers stand their ground on Indiana self-defense law - HSPA's Information Network - Indianapolis
HSPA's Information Network - Indianapolis, IN


Use of force and no duty to retreat: Indiana Code 35-41-3

IC 35-41-3-2 - Indiana Code 35-41-3
www.in.gov
IC 35-41-3-3 Use of force relating to arrest or escape Sec. 3. (a) A person other than a law enforcement officer is justified in using reasonable force against another person to effect an arrest or prevent the other person's escape if: (1) a felony has been committed; and (2) t...

ME: (still no response):
Part of the link above "No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary."

Anyway, thank you for the discussion, I will of course read any responses you have, but I'm not sure what else I can say. I wish you luck with your business.

765.939.2248 Email: mortonlake1914@yahoo.com


Also being discussed here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/258718470834250/

 

[Whosyer]

I have a strange feeling that it will be impossible to sway Sheila with facts and logic.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I have a strange feeling that it will be impossible to sway Sheila with facts and logic.

I would say that you have it exactly right: They can run their business as they see fit, and you can tell them to go pound sand.

 

[KG1]

I find this quote I took from the OP in the first response from Sheila to be quite telling. She talks about exercising their rights to protect themselves but she does'nt feel that anyone else should be able to have that same ability to exercise their own rights.

That's all I need to know and personally I would'nt waste my time patronizing a business run by people with that type of attitude.

To be very blunt WE DONT WANT ROBBED !!! At the same time you can bet if we are drawed upon..we will draw back cause we do have a carrying permit & exercise our rights!!

 

[KG1]

I have a strange feeling that it will be impossible to sway Sheila with facts and logic.

I think that's why they stopped responding. They had no argument to combat facts and logic.

Kudos to OP for taking a calm and rational approach and being polite while supplying well researched facts. You represented well

 

[BlueEagle]

Clearly us with what has is THE BEST of intelligences is and is what will if drawed upon WILL DRAW BACK and fight with permit and NO GUNS in our store we DON'T WANT ROBBED!

I found it very difficult to follow her sentences...they all sort of came out like that in my head. Regardless, seems rather hypocritical to say "no guns in our store except for ours." But, it is their business, and we are all free to take OUR business elsewhere.

 

[Boost Lee]

Wow.................. Sheila.... If you can and would ever read this,

You are something else..

 

[Tydeeh22]

wait.. let me get this right.. you have a gun on your person in the store because you own it and run it, yet i can't because i had to pay state fees, county fees, sign / fingerprint half my life away, and pass a federal background check? and you are worried I am the one who will rob you? a bait store? you serious?

 

[Whosyer]

I liked this one ...." My question is WHY do you want to bring a gun into my store??"
Ummm....I dunno Sheila, maybe because your place has a history of being robbed ?

 

[repeter1977]

I liked this one ...." My question is WHY do you want to bring a gun into my store??"
Ummm....I dunno Sheila, maybe because your place has a history of being robbed ?

haha, great line, probably wouldnt have gone over too well, but I still thought it was great.
As stated, their store, their rules, but I would be sure to tell that, that is the reason that I am going to their competition, and will be sure to inform my friends, as well as the rest of INGO, which comprises of xx,xxx members. I would also point out that like you said, irresponsible gun owners should be ejected and banned immediately, but she should want a bunch of paying security, as if something happened in there, while you are armed, you would be able to do something, instead of staring wistfully at your vehicle in the parking lot.

 

[KG1]

I liked this one ...." My question is WHY do you want to bring a gun into my store??"
Ummm....I dunno Sheila, maybe because your place has a history of being robbed ?

I think Sheila might be just a bit shell shocked. I kinda got the impression from the overall tone of her response and the way she asked the question it was like she was questioning his motive like he was casing their operation to potentially rob the place and she was gonna let him know if that's what his intentions are then they have a "carrying permit and we will exercise our rights!!" Unreal.

 

[wizard_of_ahs]

I would say that you have it exactly right: They can run their business as they see fit, and you can tell them to go pound sand.

Wow.................. Sheila.... If you can and would ever read this,

You are something else..

 

[Viper1973]

It still amazes me how closed minded some business people are! They want our money but balk when someone challenges one of their 'policies'.

I ran into a local business that behaved like this a few months ago... Finally complied and put my gun in my truck.

Went back in, got what I was needing and went to the counter to complete the transaction. Owner reached for my money. I pulled it back, 'not so fast, I'll need to see your business license and state tax certificate.'

He was stunned.... I told him that it is MY policy that I want to make sure that I'm dealing with a properly licensed merchant! He grumbled, and finally complied and I pointed out that his business license was EXPIRED and had been for about a month.

I then explained to him all of the ways he could be fined if I reported it.
Needless to say, the no guns sign went down immediately and I've never had a problem out of that store since.

We finally became friends. Later found out that the only reason the sign was up in the first place is because he was told by his insurance agent that he HAD to post that - which was totally false but he didn't know any better. He does now and has a new insurance guy.

Wonder how many other merchants are posted just do to 'false' information??? Makes ya wonder

 

[ralphb72]

Thank you all for your comments. There is still no response from them. I don't expect them to take down their sign. She said she called the other place where I spent my money and they were going to put up a sign too. Next time I am in that area I'm going to take pictures of her sign and check the other place. Since it is a private reservoir (Indiana-American Water Company) but the recreation areas including the boathouse/snackbar/baitstore is administered by the city park department, I hope that they did not indeed put up a sign thereby opening the city to possible action.

 

[sensor5]

I had a concealed handgun license in Texas a few years back and loved the fact that homemade "no firearms" signs carried no weight and you could carry in those establishments. In order for businesses to restrict weapons on their property, they had to submit a request to the state, and if approved, the state would issued that business the proper signage to post.

 

[KG1]

Thank you all for your comments. There is still no response from them. I don't expect them to take down their sign. She said she called the other place where I spent my money and they were going to put up a sign too. Next time I am in that area I'm going to take pictures of her sign and check the other place. Since it is a private reservoir (Indiana-American Water Company) but the recreation areas including the boathouse/snackbar/baitstore is administered by the city park department, I hope that they did not indeed put up a sign thereby opening the city to possible action.

Sounds like a very mean spirited spiteful person. Looks like she not only does'nt want you carrying in her business but is looking to make sure you can't patronize other businesses as well while you carry.

 

[Kutnupe14]

It still amazes me how closed minded some business people are! They want our money but balk when someone challenges one of their 'policies'.

I am constantly amazed how many gun owners don't respect the rights of a private property owner.
Half the problems we have, as gun owners, are created by ourselves.
I have no issue with dialog with a store owner concerning his policy, and if you convince them otherwise, fine. But what is the issue with following the guidelines of an owner?
The perception is that guns scare people; which to a whole lot of persons is true.
If I owned a store, I wouldn't ban firearms, but I would certainly ask that someone cover up.

 

[ATM]

I am constantly amazed how many gun owners don't respect the rights of a private property owner.

I respect their right as a property owner. If they want me to leave, I will.

How many more rights do you think they possess that I don't retain as well?

 

[sharpetop]

I work in Richmond and live not too far away. Where in the hell is Morton Lake Bait Shop? I've been around this area for 40 years and never heard of this bait shop or Morton Lake.

 

[ralphb72]

Click: Morton Lake

also:

1635 New Paris Pike
Richmond, IN 47374