No win scenario?

[The Meach]

I've long asked this question but nobody even lawyers have been able to give me an answer that doesn't end with me being dead, permanently disabled, or in prison. I know this may spark some tensions due to some current events, That is not my intent.

Note: I do need to clarify that this is a one in a million situation. %99.999 percent of police are pretty upstanding folk. Except for the jerks i see around my table every thanksgiving

Also just to simplify the situation a bit all weapons (firearms, knives, baseball bats) have been removed from this scenario. I know it would be rare for many of us to be traveling unarmed but it makes the question easier.

-

Here's the scenario:

Its 11 pm and you are driving home. You are doing the speed limit, using proper signals, ect. In short you ARE following all the rules of the road.

Lights come on behind you and you safely pull over. The officer walks up and requests your licence and registration. All your stuff is up to date as is your insurance. As you pass them out the window you ask why he pulled you over. He responds That he saw you weaving in your lane and asks if you have been drinking. You haven't and respond with a truthful "No".

The Officer comes back to your car asks you to step out and initiates a field sobriety test. you are annoyed because you know you haven't drank but you are compliant. After about 3 tests the officer informs you that you are under arrest for suspicion of drunk driving. He tells you to place your hands on the hood of your car.

You are beyond annoyed here and it is visible on your face and in your body moments. However you are compliant and follow instructions to the letter. As the officer begins to take you into custody things begin to move very fast. you are startled as he grabs your arm and you flinch. The Officer immediately shouts for you to stop resisting and takes you to the ground. The fall hurts and you are stunned. you have difficulty understanding and you are scared but you are still trying to be as non resistant as possible. this is a misunderstanding and can be fixed.

Then he hits you. You are now terrified and angry. you are face down and you are trying to stop your instinctual reflex to protect yourself. your head is ringing, you are bruised and getting stiff, you know you are bleeding. He is still shouting for your compliance and for you to stop resisting but you don't know what else you can do.

He his you again. You are barely coherent. You've curled into a ball trying to protect you head and organs. he is still shouting but you can't understand him.

He hits you a third time. You are now afraid for you life.

-

Now here is where my question begins. What can you do? My instinct would be to defend myself even if it ment to attack the officer (in my case prolly after the first time he hit me). But any foreseeable defensive action that will result in is a long court battle, prison time. If you aren't killed when his back-up arrives.

Do you curl up and hope for a rescuer? Do you Run (or at least try to) knowing full well that the officer may shoot you? Do you try and fight and overpower the officer knowing you may kill him?

If you do fight, do you stay, surrender, and try and explain to a judge? Do you run and turn yourself in later, out of fear of further attack from the officer's back-up? Do you try and run and hide, hoping the truth will come out before they track you down?

Is there any way you could possibly resolve this that doesn't result in your death, disablement or long term imprisonment?

This "what if" has had my head spinning for a long time. Is there any way for you to defend yourself from an assault by a cop?

 

[6birds]

tickle him

 

[Bucko]

Let me preface this by saying, I'm not a lawsuithappy person. I also know not all cops are badguys, but occasionally we all find a crappy one.

Under your scenario, if he's hitting you, play dead, don't move. (In that situation, it could be twisted in court that your movements are resistance).

Then get a really good lawyer.

#1, if you hit the cop, you're in deep .

#2, if you run, you're in deep

Just my .

 

[furbymac]

i think if i was apparently pulled over for no reason i would A-call 911 and ask for a higher ranking officer (ie. captain or sheriff or state police or dnr) or B-drive inform officer that you feel you need to drive to a safer place and drive to a populated area(gas station or something like that) but standing outside the situation with a clear head is alot different than being in the situation with the mind wondering.

 

[sloughfoot]

There is no reality in your scenario. It is a bad dream. Just wake up and go on..

I reject the entire premise of a Police Officer doing this. Unless he is your girlfriends ex-husband.. It is the only way that this scenario even starts to make any sense, a personal vendetta.

You are leaving out all the factors that would get an Officer fired and prosecuted for this crime in real life. And I am not going to divulge those factors on a public forum.

Believe it or not, Police Officers ARE held to a high standard. Police Supervisors can easily see through BS charges.

 

[redneckmedic]

Pull your bug... two to the chest and one to the head.

I would be careful going down this road. I asked similar question on this board two years ago. I went something like this... "What if a LEO drew his weapon and began to fire at you?" The circumstances didn't matter, did he see something you didn't? Did he misinterpret your actions? Did.... whatever, The question is... do you return fire?

I got slammed. I think the thread ended up closed. It was only a 'what if' and turned into cops bashing Avg Joe, and Ave Joe bashing cops.

Just be careful, this leads to bad places, especially with all the neg press right now.

 

[lovemachine]

Pull your bug... two to the chest and one to the head.

I would be careful going down this road. I asked similar question on this board two years ago. I went something like this... "What if a LEO drew his weapon and began to fire at you?" The circumstances didn't matter, did he see something you didn't? Did he misinterpret your actions? Did.... whatever, The question is... do you return fire?

I got slammed. I think the thread ended up closed. It was only a 'what if' and turned into cops bashing Avg Joe, and Ave Joe bashing cops.

Just be careful, this leads to bad places, especially with all the neg press right now.

The question is, before the thread was closed, did they figure out if you should return fire?

 

[redneckmedic]

The question is, before the thread was closed, did they figure out if you should return fire?

No, because we knew the relational against the public would be way too extreme, threats of motorcyclists getting creamed in a drunken rage, teenagers beat for no reason, and even rabid K-9s out of control!..... wait, wait, wait, OK now, who did it?

 

[lovemachine]

No, because we knew the relational against the public would be way too extreme, threats of motorcyclists getting creamed in a drunken rage, teenagers beat for no reason, and even rabid K-9s out of control!..... wait, wait, wait, OK now, who did it?

 

[printcraft]

The question is, before the thread was closed, did they figure out if you should return fire?

Yes, they figured it out.

 

[The Meach]

I would be careful going down this road. I asked similar question on this board two years ago. I went something like this... "What if a LEO drew his weapon and began to fire at you?" The circumstances didn't matter, did he see something you didn't? Did he misinterpret your actions? Did.... whatever, The question is... do you return fire?

I got slammed. I think the thread ended up closed. It was only a 'what if' and turned into cops bashing Avg Joe, and Ave Joe bashing cops.

Just be careful, this leads to bad places, especially with all the neg press right now.

That is why i was so restrictive with the presented scenario.

but you are right, and i really hope that this doesn't become a finger pointing game. if it does i'll pm a mod and ask them to close it myself.

But when it comes to the point of self-defense this is one question that society hasn't answered yet. How do we protect ourselves when one of the good guy's turns bad. or if there is a misunderstanding like a mis-addressed no-knock warrant. Can we protect ourselves?

I know it is a uncomfortable question to contemplate. but maybe the fact that it is so hard for to think about let alone answer is evidence enough that we need to.

 

[redneckmedic]

It wasn't too long ago when a Brother lost his life at a public even (air show or fair maybe). He was undercover and not in uniform, drew his weapon to apprehend a suspect or whatever, I do know that it was an appropriate use of force, and he was shot from behind by a uniformed officer.

Bad Day.

 

[ProLibertate]

This may be the most ridiculous outlandishly impossible what-if scenario I have ever read that didn't involve aliens or nuns with shotguns...

That said, if you are signaled to pull over by a marked police car or unmarked car with an officer in full uniform and you are nervous about it, you have every right to turn on your hazard lights to acknowledge the officer's presence and proceed at or below the posted speed limit to a well lit populated area before stopping.
If you are really nervous about it, dial 911 while preceding to said populated area and ask for an additional unit or a supervisor to be dispatched to the scene. Leave the phone "off the hook" during the traffic stop.

There are a few ideas for you that don't involve shooting cops or running into the woods!

 

[Bushido Devil Dog]

There is no reality in your scenario. It is a bad dream. Just wake up and go on..

I reject the entire premise of a Police Officer doing this.

Me too. This scenario is COMPETELY unrealistic and will never ever happen in a million years because police officers simply NEVER ever ever commit crimes. It is simply inconceivable that a uniformed police officer would commit an unprovoked assault on a non-resisting citizen:

Unprovoked Cops Viciously Beat Student Then Charge Him With Assault



And of course even more heinous crimes, such as committing sexual assault while on duty and in uniform:

Former Officer Sentenced In Sexual Assault Case - Indiana News Story - WRTV Indianapolis


... commiting rape while on duty and in uniform:

Former Providence police officer sentenced to 60 years for rape | Rhode Island news | projo.com | The Providence Journal


...randomly murdering innocent unarmed civilians in public while in uniform:

BBC News - Russian ex-police boss gets life for supermarket murder


...and murdering citizens that trust them like a family member as well as a fellow police officer that they worked with for years:

Antoinette Frank - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Saturday, March 4, 1995. 1:55 A.M. New Orleans — Saturday, March 4, 1995, 1:55 AM New Orleans — Crime Library on truTV.com


...simply NEVER EVER HAPPEN, so the premise of the original post is entirely bogus, has no basis on any event that has ever actually happened, and I challenge anyone to find even one real-life example of where a police officer has commited such a crime (or worse) as premised in the OP.

 

[Blue Tile Spook]

This may be the most ridiculous outlandishly impossible what-if scenario I have ever read that didn't involve aliens or nuns with shotguns...

That said, if you are signaled to pull over by a marked police car or unmarked car with an officer in full uniform and you are nervous about it, you have every right to turn on your hazard lights to acknowledge the officer's presence and proceed at or below the posted speed limit to a well lit populated area before stopping.
If you are really nervous about it, dial 911 while preceding to said populated area and ask for an additional unit or a supervisor to be dispatched to the scene. Leave the phone "off the hook" during the traffic stop.

There are a few ideas for you that don't involve shooting cops or running into the woods!

Emphasis mine.

IIRC, we had a member here who strongly suggested that anyone following the advice in the bolded portion above would find themselves in very bad circumstances for not yielding when signaled for the traffic stop. If my memory is incorrect, I apologize.

 

[Jeremiah]

Unsurprisingly, high ranking Philadelphia police officer arrested - Philadelphia County Libertarian | Examiner.com

 

[henktermaat]

Answer? You lay there and get beat, and hope you're still alive/sane when "backup" arrives.

 

[mrjarrell]

The common law answer is that you can resist unlawful arrest. Although, as Downzero posted some time ago the INSC has apparently ruled against the common law, (and themselves) and invalidated self defence as a defence. If your life is in jeopardy you do what you have to do, I guess. A noted libertarian in Las Vegas was in a similar situation, (in fear of his life) and he ran. He was the recipient of multiple bullet wounds in his back. He had the option of fighting back, as he was legally armed at the time. He,instead, chose to distance himself from the officer and was almost killed for it. It is a no win situation.

 

[finity]

There is no reality in your scenario. It is a bad dream. Just wake up and go on..

I reject the entire premise of a Police Officer doing this. Unless he is your girlfriends ex-husband.. It is the only way that this scenario even starts to make any sense, a personal vendetta.

You are leaving out all the factors that would get an Officer fired and prosecuted for this crime in real life. And I am not going to divulge those factors on a public forum.

Believe it or not, Police Officers ARE held to a high standard. Police Supervisors can easily see through BS charges.

Why not? Do you think that the public doesn't have a need (or a right) to know what it is that will get a cop arrested or fired? Keeping people in the dark about their rights (& the limitations on those entrusted to "oversee" them) is at least part of the reason we're having these types of discussions in the first place.

This may be the most ridiculous outlandishly impossible what-if scenario I have ever read that didn't involve aliens or nuns with shotguns...

Meach,

To allay the apprehensions of the LEO's on the board who might feel you're just trying to start (in their opinion) another cop bashing thread, maybe you should include in your scenario an element that will make the initial action by the cop more reasonable. Like maybe you had a burned out license plate bulb.

Seriously, though, even if you were actually drinking (but not necessarily legally DWI) but the cop could smell it on you enough to have PC for a FST & the ensuing aforementioned hilarity ensued it wouldn't change ANYTHING in regards to the legality of the cops actions or your allowable legal response. A cop can't beat somebody up for "resisting" if they haven't even if they WERE guilty of SOMETHING else.

That said, if you are signaled to pull over by a marked police car or unmarked car with an officer in full uniform and you are nervous about it, you have every right to turn on your hazard lights to acknowledge the officer's presence and proceed at or below the posted speed limit to a well lit populated area before stopping.
If you are really nervous about it, dial 911 while preceding to said populated area and ask for an additional unit or a supervisor to be dispatched to the scene. Leave the phone "off the hook" during the traffic stop.

There are a few ideas for you that don't involve shooting cops or running into the woods!

Thank you for your constructive input.

I don't think that answers the real question though. Honestly I don't think there is a real answer to the scenario.

Sometimes things happen that really place us in a no-win situation. This is probably one of them.

This is also EXACTLY why we, as a society, HAVE TO be extra vigilant with who we entrust to have such extraordinary powers over us & why we should holler to hills when we see anything that should send up warning flags about the actions of ANY agent of the government.

 

[dross]

The fact that there is no good answer illustrates a very, very important point.

The reason there is no good answer is because we as a society endow cops with enormous powers. We allow them to exercise judgment above and beyond what we allow ordindary citizens. We give them the benefit of the doubt when those judgments turn out to be wrong. We give their sworn word more weight than the sworn word of an ordinary citizen. We give them the power to issue orders to citizens that the citizen must obey.

All of these powers are necessary.

That is why we should come down with hell's own fury when we find a bad officer. When an officer oversteps not out of good faith judgment, but from some petty need to show power, or worse when he's just corrupt, firing should just be the first thing that happens.

If a cop speeds and the fine is $50.00 for a citizen, it should be $100.00 for a cop. If a criminal penalty is one year in jail for a citizen, it should be two years for a cop.

When they abuse their enormous power, they should face enormous consequences.