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Not a Good Shot (AR-15)
- Thread starter Doublehelix
- Start date
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This was my thought as well. If you're off the paper at 50 yds with some shots, but making nice groups with the rest of your shots (as demonstrated by your pix), I'd focus on the ammo. A 1:7 twist might be causing a bad batch of rounds to disintegrate, even though 1:7 is a standard twist for most ARs.
So, different weights, different makers, different runs. If you see the same problem across a wide range of ammo, then I'd fault the shooter.
In infantry school they had us doing this with pennies balanced on the cleaning rod hanging out the barrel. Since we didn't get much sleep, I saw the guy next to me nod off. He was asleep for a good 3 to 4 minutes in the prone. Penny never fell off. I was quite impressed.
Its a great idea, though. People think they have good trigger squeeze until they try it.
If you are admittedly good with a pistol, you probably have the makings of a good rifleman. Give yourself time. Have faith in yourself.I am pretty deadly with my pistols for the most part, but then again I have been shooting them for a long time.
My AR-15's on the other hand are another story. I started shooting rifles when I was pretty young, and shot pretty regularly up until high school when I discovered girls and rock and roll, and put down the rifle for a guitar. Now that I am officially an "old fart", I bought an AR-15 and built a second one. The problem is I cannot shoot either one worth beans!
Was at the range yesterday with my buddy shooting at 50 yards with my Vortex StrikeEagle 1-6 scope though my Frankengun (1:7 BCM barrel) with some Federal Matchking 69gr .223 ammo. These shots are bench supported. We zeroed the scope as best we could, and here is what I shot after that (The target is a 2" circle)". The group at the top is not bad I guess, although there are a few off the paper. There are 6 shots here out of 10 that are out of that tight group, 4 that missed the target completely.
Here is another target, also with a 2" center (while circle):
Remember, these are at 50 yards, not 100 yards. I hear a lot of folks talking about being able to shoot a 1" group at 100 yards, and I am struggling with a 2" spread at 50 yards.
I am having a tough time keeping the sight still, even when supported. Certainly, when shooting unsupported while standing, the bulls eye is swimming all over the place in the scope.
I don't remember it being this difficult to keep the crosshairs on the bullseye when I was young.
What are ways I can improve my accuracy? I have probably 400 rounds down the pipe at this point from this gun, and maybe 250 round from the other AR-15. Do I just need to keep on practicing or are there things I should be working on. I read the book "How to shoot like a Navy SEAL" and watched the videos from that book, along with some YouTube stuff from Jerry Miculak and others. Is it time for some serious training, or am I just expecting too much? Or maybe I just suck!
HELP! (Thank you!)
I seem to shoot better with a full stock than a collapsable one. Chrome lined barrels are reportedly not as accurate as carbon steel or stainless steel, but that doesn't explain your shots off the paper. I just put a 1:7 barrel in my M-4 style rifle. My first trip to the range, I had about a 4" group at 100 yards, with 855 factory ammo. I didn't use a good sandbag rest, just cheap adjustable front rest, but still I was hoping for a much better group. I fired about a hundred rounds. I cleaned the barrel with Kroil and JB compound when I got home. I'm hoping that I can tighten up the group, but like you, I'm no great shakes as a rifleman, compared to match shooters. My rifle has a Rock River match trigger that breaks clean at around 4 1/2 pounds. Basically I'd say that the wild shots are you and the photos are what the rifle is capable of shooting. I am a lot older than you and use a telescopic sight (a Leupold) on my AR. BTW, if you use a powder measure to charge your cases, it could cause those erratic shots. I'm anal and weigh each charge before depositing the powder into the case.
This is what I thought of.
In my own limited opinion, one usually must try some different brands/bullet weights/etc. of rounds. Since the AR-15 is a semiautomatic platform, one must shop around a bit to find the most accurate ammo. In my own experience several years ago, I found out much to my chagrin that Remington FMJ .223 would not hold a 4" group at 100 yds off a bipod with a telescopic sight on a Colt HBAR 1/7 twist. A friend had some Federal .223 55 gr. FMJBT which caused my group sizes to shrink by about 3". Just because someone touts a certain load or brand in their rifle as being the end all, be all...that does not mean it will do the same in your rifle.
I agree about different loads shooting differently in different guns, but I don't think that explains the wild shots off the paper the OP reports. That sounds more like operator error. A good trigger pull, i.e. match type trigger parts, can really help a shooter shrink groups, but to eliminate those real wild shots, the trigger finger needs education. So often we want to blame the equipment/ ammo, but as the OP suspects, quite often it is the human factor that is the weak link.
4. Breath control. Don't hold your breath. Find the natural pause at the end of your exhale, and relax. In other words, don't hold your breath, relax and quit breathing. You do not want your core strained while you shoot
Notalentbum
Expert
IMHO, it may well be the guns.
Over the last 4 years I have ended up with 5 ARs. I couldn't shoot any of them any better than 4moa even with match ammo. I had two bolt guns that I could hold right at 1moa without trouble. I had even posted on here about why couldn't my ARs do any better. I thought maybe there was something different I needed to be doing with an AR. All mine were either off the shelf budget rifles or PSA kits.
I got in on the first INGO lower group buy. I built it up with a match grade barrel and most of the other parts were also upper quality. This AR shoots sub moa with match ammo.
So, in my case, it was the hardware.
Matt
Over the last 4 years I have ended up with 5 ARs. I couldn't shoot any of them any better than 4moa even with match ammo. I had two bolt guns that I could hold right at 1moa without trouble. I had even posted on here about why couldn't my ARs do any better. I thought maybe there was something different I needed to be doing with an AR. All mine were either off the shelf budget rifles or PSA kits.
I got in on the first INGO lower group buy. I built it up with a match grade barrel and most of the other parts were also upper quality. This AR shoots sub moa with match ammo.
So, in my case, it was the hardware.
Matt
What trigger did you use....I didn't see it listed in the build spec's.
I assume, that in your original post, when you stated some hits were "off the paper", that you were referring to the shots barely off the edge of the 2" circle and not ones that completely missed the backer (foam or whatever) we can see in the photo. Those still appear to fall within about a 2" group.
While I agree each gun will do better with some cartridges vs. others, the Sierra 69 gr HPBT's used in the federals you used do well in all of my AR's. I suspect you need more time firing the rifle to tighten up the groups.
I assume, that in your original post, when you stated some hits were "off the paper", that you were referring to the shots barely off the edge of the 2" circle and not ones that completely missed the backer (foam or whatever) we can see in the photo. Those still appear to fall within about a 2" group.
While I agree each gun will do better with some cartridges vs. others, the Sierra 69 gr HPBT's used in the federals you used do well in all of my AR's. I suspect you need more time firing the rifle to tighten up the groups.
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This exactly. Eliminate yourself from the equation as much as possible to find out what the gun can do. Solid, stable front and rear rests are the only way to do that. The front rest should not allow the gun any lateral movement.
Anybody shooting 1" at 100 yards without a rest..........well, I'd have to see that!
A full rest? As in say a sled? I've shot 1/2 moa at 210yds off front bipod and rear bag. I've found that a rest makes my groups worse.
sloughfoot
Grandmaster
Attend a Highpower match. You will see plenty of 1 MOA or better groups. With a sling. From position. Out to 600 yards. With iron sighted rifles of several types.
It is actually not hard to do. At least not impossible.
Geissele SSA - I just realized that I copied and pasted only the upper components and not the lower components! DUH! Sorry!
That is correct, off of the 2" target paper, not off of the target itself. You can see the shots I am referring to in the images.
I am sure so much of this is operator error.
Yes!!! This is how I feel. It still feels awkward to me when shooting the AR platform. I really can't get into my natural point of aim and rhythm yet.
Front Rest:
Rear Rest:
My apologies. I was thinking straight up off hand without a sling. Virtually all of our rifle shooting is from a bench. I consider 1" at 100 yards a requirement for our p doggin' guns.
NyleRN, only used a one-piece rest a couple of times. Always use a front rest and rear bag now.
