NTSB wants ignition interlock technology in all new vehicles.

[BugI02]

Steering-by-wire and throttle-by-wire are more common all the time.

Both of those systems only accept input from designated sources, one of which is not the internet

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Two things to help.

I replaced all the old lighting on the Dodge with LED drop in replacements, only down side was I had to find low amperage turn signal breakers but they were available.

Check your eyes for cataracts, my "new eyes" have made a big difference.

I can see fine in actual darkness. What I can't see is in transitions, where there is some light and some dark. I think it's a function of colorblindness that's just gotten worse as I've aged. I can't get my eyes to focus on edges. Even 10 years ago I needed to be in your back seat to read your license plate in the dark, but have 20/20 or better in both eyes and combined in the daylight. Out in the woods with just starlight I'm as good as the next guy. It's just I can't see detail or edges good when it's patchy, like headlights on an otherwise dark road. I've found the light from HID is perfect for me, unsure if it's the color of the light it throws or intensity or what but I can read signs and license plates much easier with HID.

 

[Paul30]

Yea, just the tip... of the camels nose under the tent. Once they develop the ability to shut down a vehicle or keep it from running, then they just add the required tech to give them the power to do it any time they like. If it communicates with cell towers, it will track and log every vehicle just like they track phones. Hard drive space is getting very cheap and tax money is free to them. They have a civil disturbance, lock all vehicles on a certain list off. There are numerous techs and laws that have been implemented under the guise of public safety. After all, it's always for the children. The guy who ran over 60 people in the Christmas parade would be an example they would use to implement this tech.

 

[nonobaddog]

Both of those systems only accept input from designated sources, one of which is not the internet

I see what you are trying to say and I agree but if "one of which is not the internet", doesn't that leave the door open to the other one being the internet?

 

[Shadow01]

The sad thing about these interlock devices is that the people making the decision to force them on the public could give a hoot less how many people get killed or maimed on the highways from drunks. Once the law is passed and you have to buy the new gadgets it's irrelevant if drunks find a way to game the devices. The industry that makes them is making big money and the noble government regulators are making money, that what these legal scams are all about. Taking money from the American public and pocketing it, legally.

This can be avoided by mandating safety devices or products that have the potential to save more than 100 lives must be provided free. You would be surprised how quickly these ideas disappear.

 

[KLB]

This can be avoided by mandating safety devices or products that have the potential to save more than 100 lives must be provided free. You would be surprised how quickly these ideas disappear.

Nothing is free.

 

[Shadow01]

Nothing is free.

You haven’t been listening to the communists, have you? Anything they desire can be made available for free.

 

[BugI02]

I see what you are trying to say and I agree but if "one of which is not the internet", doesn't that leave the door open to the other one being the internet?

The point I was attempting to make is, for non Tesla type vehicles with autopilot, the power steering only accepts input a sending unit attached to the steering wheel. It would not be possible to hack the engine control system and send spurious inputs to the power steering

The phraseology was meant to convey that there may be more than one source of control signals to the power steering (such as input from the transmission reporting speed to speed sensitive steering in addition to input from the steering wheel sending unit) without a hack being able to take control of steering and drive the car

 

[nonobaddog]

Both of those systems only accept input from designated sources, one of which is not the internet

For example - steering-by-wire uses a steering position sensor on the steering column. That tells a controlling processor where the steering wheel is positioned along with how fast it is being turned I believe. So then this processor controls the motor that actually turns the steering hardware and turns the front wheels. Supposedly there is no internet involved. However if this controlling processor is hacked through another system that does have internet involvement it might be very possible to control the steering wheel position sensor data or more likely the controller output to the steering motor.

I am not into hacking cars so I don't know but that is how I imagine this works. Just get control of the system processors as has already been demonstrated and then get control of other processors through those connections and manipulate the output. I can watch a lot of similar type data on my laptop screen just from what is available through the OBD-II port. If someone were to study these systems the way hackers study Windows operating systems I have little doubt they would find vulnerabilities and get more sophisticated over time until vehicle takeover becomes possible.

 

[nonobaddog]

The point I was attempting to make is, for non Tesla type vehicles with autopilot, the power steering only accepts input a sending unit attached to the steering wheel. It would not be possible to hack the engine control system and send spurious inputs to the power steering

The phraseology was meant to convey that there may be more than one source of control signals to the power steering (such as input from the transmission reporting speed to speed sensitive steering in addition to input from the steering wheel sending unit) without a hack being able to take control of steering and drive the car

On more and more cars the steering and throttle inputs have to be coming through the control processors if the cars/trucks have parking assist/lane assist/braking assist/back up assist/trailer assist/hill descent control or some other form of processor controlled driving. Hacking into the control processor with complete control and inserting your own controlling code would allow you to do whatever.

So one could specialize in hacking only those model cars. Others will be joining that group shortly.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

For example - steering-by-wire uses a steering position sensor on the steering column. That tells a controlling processor where the steering wheel is positioned along with how fast it is being turned I believe. So then this processor controls the motor that actually turns the steering hardware and turns the front wheels. Supposedly there is no internet involved. However if this controlling processor is hacked through another system that does have internet involvement it might be very possible to control the steering wheel position sensor data or more likely the controller output to the steering motor.

I am not into hacking cars so I don't know but that is how I imagine this works. Just get control of the system processors as has already been demonstrated and then get control of other processors through those connections and manipulate the output. I can watch a lot of similar type data on my laptop screen just from what is available through the OBD-II port. If someone were to study these systems the way hackers study Windows operating systems I have little doubt they would find vulnerabilities and get more sophisticated over time until vehicle takeover becomes possible.

I'll take one more bite at this. How you imagine it works is not how it works. Not all the systems talk to each other in the way you imagine they do. You can't "take control through the Internet" of systems that do not talk to each other in the required way for control, or do not talk to each other at all. It is not one big computer (generally, as stated Tesla may be, I've no idea). Its a bunch of computers and networks, some of which talk and some of which don't and some of which only listen.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Man... you smart people...

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Man... you smart people...

The smart people are the ones designing all this stuff, and then adapting it to the chip shortage. I initially had some of the same concerns about remote control of the vehicle so I looked in to it. What I quickly learned is it's completely overblown with one possible exception, and that's the 'no start tune' being disguised as an over the air update. A ransomware attack like that is highly unlikely to be successful, but not a 0% chance and would be a way to both make a lot o' cash and bring the Eye of Sauron upon you. Remember the ransomware dudes not too long ago who gave the money back and apologized? Because they didn't want to die in prison or during their cafe experience? Right. So there's solid incentive to not do it and there's a very high tech barrier to get it done...but still not 0%. I won't lose sleep over it, but I'd still prefer to not have a connected car because I don't value the things a connected car gets me.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

The smart people are the ones designing all this stuff, and then adapting it to the chip shortage. I initially had some of the same concerns about remote control of the vehicle so I looked in to it. What I quickly learned is it's completely overblown with one possible exception, and that's the 'no start tune' being disguised as an over the air update. A ransomware attack like that is highly unlikely to be successful, but not a 0% chance and would be a way to both make a lot o' cash and bring the Eye of Sauron upon you. Remember the ransomware dudes not too long ago who gave the money back and apologized? Because they didn't want to die in prison or during their cafe experience? Right. So there's solid incentive to not do it and there's a very high tech barrier to get it done...but still not 0%. I won't lose sleep over it, but I'd still prefer to not have a connected car because I don't value the things a connected car gets me.

My "new" car is a 2011 Hyundai. I don't *think* it has OTA accessibility. It came with some kind of radio thing (Sirius XM maybe?) - never used it and let it expire, so I don't really know), but that's about it.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

My "new" car is a 2011 Hyundai. I don't *think* it has OTA accessibility. It came with some kind of radio thing (Sirius XM maybe?) - never used it and let it expire, so I don't really know), but that's about it.

It does not. Domestics weren't doing OTA until a couple years ago. Ford in 2020, GMC in 2019 for anything not related to infotainment. Hyundai/Kia is just now starting it in some models.

 

[nonobaddog]

I think it is obvious that the cars that claim "self-driving" capabilities have to have many systems connected and controlled, such as throttle, steering, brakes, object sensors and cameras. These cars have many control processors but the important ones have to be connected to allow coordinated processing.

Other cars that are not self driving but have assisted driving of some type could very well have the same connections in order to control the systems that they do control. Seems pretty clear that simple adaptive cruise control has to be able to process and control throttle, brakes, and distance sensors.

Cabling in a modern car is the third highest cost component behind the chassis and the engine. Cabling is also the third highest weight component. That is a good bit of connectivity.

I am pretty familiar with the guts of the common networking protocol ethernet and am aware of its vulnerabilities. There is a similar protocol called "automotive ethernet" designed specifically for use in cars. It uses packets just like communication ethernet but the packets are bigger allowing the greater bandwidth required for real-time processing of all the data needed to control a car.

I am not aware of any proof that these cars can be hacked and controlled but I would guess most of us have seen the results when a computer system is compromised by malware. I have seen enough of this that I find it difficult to believe the automotive systems are perfect. If a vulnerability is not known at this point in time - then wait a minute.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

It does not. Domestics weren't doing OTA until a couple years ago. Ford in 2020, GMC in 2019 for anything not related to infotainment. Hyundai/Kia is just now starting it in some models.

Well that's a relief. Because God help me, I like this little car.

 

[nonobaddog]

Onstar started in 1996. They can unlock your car for you, etc. They also can and do record your conversations whether you want them to or not and can keep logs of your vehicles location history whether you want them to or not. Fun stuff.

 

[BugI02]

For example - steering-by-wire uses a steering position sensor on the steering column. That tells a controlling processor where the steering wheel is positioned along with how fast it is being turned I believe. So then this processor controls the motor that actually turns the steering hardware and turns the front wheels. Supposedly there is no internet involved. However if this controlling processor is hacked through another system that does have internet involvement it might be very possible to control the steering wheel position sensor data or more likely the controller output to the steering motor.

For this example, if the purpose was to cause mayhem, you would not need to gain control of the processor but merely interrupt it's signaling so that no further input is given to the steering control motor. A crash would likely happen fairly quickly

That is why, again with the caveat of not considering vehicles like a Tesla that have a full autopilot capability, signals to these actuators are not subjected to processing by the main computer chip. Not only would the additional latency further degrade steering feel but would also expose that link to extraneous/erroneous input. They are usually one way command systems. There might be a speed-dependent trigger of a different response map in speed sensitive steering and there is almost certainly a variable map on throttle by wire but there is no way to take command of the system

Intelligent cruise control is getting closer to intervention in that system but still likely just implements broader parameters such as sufficient acceleration to return to the preset desired speed when clearance from other vehicles allows. The main processor could not reset the limiting speed on it own (yet)

Full disclosure: This is purely supposition on my part based on some knowledge of how critical systems are usually controlled. I am not an automotive engineer

 

[printcraft]

Look, it's possible because I recently watched a documentary about it happening...
@ about 3:30 you can see the effects and it's bad.
These are even older vehicles without all of that drive by wire steering etc. mumbo jumbo.



NOTE: we might have some other things to worry about.