Obama orders C.D.C. gun study; finds self-defense w/guns common & effective!

[actaeon277]

You're celebrating a cherry-picked finding here. However, from your reference:
"1. The United States has an indisputable gun violence problem. According to the report, “the U.S. rate of firearm-related homicide is higher than that of any other industrialized country: 19.5 times higher than the rates in other high-income countries.”"
What about all violence? If someone switches to knives or bats, that's ok? How about comparing violence to violence?

"4. Handguns are the problem. Despite being outnumbered by long guns, “Handguns are used in more than 87 percent of violent crimes,” the report notes. In 2011, “handguns comprised 72.5 percent of the firearms used in murder and non-negligent manslaughter incidents.” Why do criminals prefer handguns? One reason, according to surveys of felons, is that they’re “easily concealable.”"
So they want to ban "Assault Weapons" why????

"6. Gun suicide is a bigger killer than gun homicide. From 2000 to 2010, “firearm-related suicides significantly outnumbered homicides for all age groups, annually accounting for 61 percent of the more than 335,600 people who died from firearm-related violence in the United States,” says the report. Firearm sales are often a warning: Two studies found that “a small but significant fraction of gun suicides are committed within days to weeks after the purchase of a handgun, and both also indicate that gun purchasers have an elevated risk of suicide for many years after the purchase of the gun.”"
Japan has very few firearms, yet leads us in suicides.

Obama's order was for "the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to assess the existing research on gun violence and recommend future studies." Since the result of the CDC assessment of existing studies show agreement with arguments from both the pro-and anti- crowd, there's still a lot of room for debates and further research on the issues.

Replied.

 

[Bogan]

If you feel that the causes of gun violence are in dispute, by all means, study away. I'll give you some hints. We have a problem with drug running criminal gangs who account for a large number of the gun crimes. We have a legal system that releases all but the most violent offenders well before their sentence is up. We have a problem with the disintegration of the family structure, where many young men grow up fatherless.

Great, you've gotten to the bottom of things, now go publish it for peer review and make sure you include all your references, including stats.

Why? Is it in dispute? If you believe it to be untrue, prove me wrong. I'll give you another hint, you can't.

Can't prove a negative, sorry.

Because guns are common here, and that they make a very effective tool for someone hellbent on suicide, it would stand to reason that we would have more gun suicides than Japan where guns are rare.

Excellent deduction, that's exactly the point.

What does not stand to reason, is that by removing guns, we would have a dramatically lower suicide rate.

That's an opinion. Prove it.

People committed to taking their own life will find another tool.

Those other tools are already available, and they are more easily accessible than guns. Yet the majority of suicides by men are by firearms NIMH · Suicide in the U.S.: Statistics and Prevention. Why? If you don't know, then maybe we should find out.

Just as a criminal without a gun will also find another tool.

Right, so let's just let them have their guns, there's no point anyway, is that your logic?

If a magic wand could be waved, and all guns were gone tomorrow, we would have no gun crime, no gun suicides, no gun accidents...Since this is not going to happen, it just makes more sense to take on the root problems and not the tool.

But you haven't shown any evidence on what you think the root problems are - all I see are your opinions.

I'm just curious, do you believe that we have an individual right to keep and bear arms, guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment?

Ah, the acid test question for eligibility to discuss gun problems... are you pro or anti-2A? The right to keep and bear arms is not an absolute right, as you've agreed with your previous statement that some people do not deserve that right (fatherless people, released offenders, drug running criminal gangs).

 

[Bogan]

If you agree with the premise that guns are the cause of anything.

Nah, guns are not the cause of anything, easy access to guns by absolutely anyone is.

 

[melensdad]

Nah, guns are not the cause of anything, easy access to guns by absolutely anyone is.

So easy access to guns is the CAUSE of robbery/rape/murder/car jacking/bank robbery?

And easy access to guns is the CAUSE of suicide?

 

[actaeon277]

Nah, guns are not the cause of anything, easy access to guns by absolutely anyone is.

And yet all these gun restrictions are a relatively recent thing. How did the country get by?

 

[richardraw316]

The fact is that in this country, suicides by guns outnumber murders by guns, despite the availability of much cheaper knives, rat poison, rope, blades, prescription drugs. And jumping off a tall structure is free. Go back to your first question, what problems has Japan got that are different from us?

if the question is why do suicides prefer guns seems easy to understand.
We believe it hurts less. you every cut yourself on accident? you remember how much it hurts? now try to do that on purpose, deep enough that it wont stop once you pass out. Real painful.
rat poison? really painful. Hang yourself with rope? kind of slow if you do it wrong, and painful.
jumping of a high building? i remember a story about a sky diver who parachute failed, he hit the ground at 120mph, and lived. shattered just about every bone in his body. I bet that hurt.
its human nature to avoid pain. that is why suicide with a gun is most popular. we belive it does not hurt. (not to many people around to tell us other wise).
so if japan does not have guns, then they would have no choice but to try a different way to end their own lives.
hell they are famous for doing it with knives and planes.

 

[ghuns]

The right to keep and bear arms is not an absolute right, as you've agreed with your previous statement that some people do not deserve that right (fatherless people, released offenders, drug running criminal gangs).

Please, quote my text where I said that.

You are welcome to hold any opinion you like around here, it's an internet forum. But your comments make clear that you are decidedly less "pro-gun" than the average INGOer. You probably even think that the recent round of gun control bills in Congress really were "common sense". I was kidding. Seriously, you don't do you?

 

[HoosierLife]

In light of that study, maybe it's the gun free households that need to pay a special tax. They are contributing to the rate of crime by doing nothing to dissuade a criminal. A household that owns a gun for the protection of itself and others lowers the crime rate. A household that has no guns is more dependent on a police force for protection and should pay their fair share.

In a city that had zero guns legally owned, the police force would need to be larger than a city that had 100% of its households legally owning guns. Has anyone ever done a study on the number of police per capita in cities that limit gun ownership vs. the number per capita in cities where gun ownership is common? You would have to factor in the crime rate as well I think.

This actually makes so much sense it hurts. I betcha our founding fathers would have agreed with this sentiment +1

 

[MrCooper]

Of course this will never be mentioned on tv or brought up by any of the anti gunners. If someone else brings it up I'm sure they'll claim that the report was inconclusive.

 

[Streak]

What other indisputable problems do we have that other high income countries do not? Perhaps if we started by tackling some of root causes of gun violence, rather than jumping straight to more gun control, we could find some common ground.

If we're going to talk mental health as a social issue, I think everyone should be prepared to be open to the idea of socialized medicine. Before you scream at me, realize that SOMEONE has to pay for the nutcases. Making them pay for it, especially if they're already poor, is unethical (mental illness isn't a choice).

And yet our suicide rate, 12 per 100K, is nearly half of say Japan, at 22 per 100K. How many guns are there in Japan again?

Japanese culture is extremely different than the US's. I don't believe it's a fair comparison.

 

[Streak]

And yet all these gun restrictions are a relatively recent thing. How did the country get by?

To be fair, someone probably made the same argument in requiring speed limits or airbags in cars. I'm not personally against some of the laws proposed. I believe in having one's background checked, because I'm of the opinion that violent crime offenders (especially repeat offenders), rapists, murderers, etc shouldn't be allowed to own guns.

I had a background check for my gun, I don't have a problem with it. When you get hired in at a company there's a high chance your background is getting ran anyways.

 

[KLB]

To be fair, someone probably made the same argument in requiring speed limits or airbags in cars. I'm not personally against some of the laws proposed. I believe in having one's background checked, because I'm of the opinion that violent crime offenders (especially repeat offenders), rapists, murderers, etc shouldn't be allowed to own guns.

I had a background check for my gun, I don't have a problem with it. When you get hired in at a company there's a high chance your background is getting ran anyways.

You think that criminals would not get guns because of a law requiring background checks?

You think you should have to get a background check if your father gives you a gun or you give one to your brother?

 

[Streak]

You think that criminals would not get guns because of a law requiring background checks?

You think you should have to get a background check if your father gives you a gun or you give one to your brother?

Does taking away a habitual drunk driver's licenses stop him from driving? It's arguably easier to drive drunk without a license than it is to find someone who would sell you a gun illegally with the hope that if you get caught you won't snitch them out to the cops.

No law is perfect and no law has ever stopped a crime from happening. If you believe laws are magic shields to stop crime, you're delusional. I do think, however, that it would HELP (not fix) the issue.

Again, I'm not making the case that everyone who has ever been arrested should never own a gun. I sincerely believe that if you've been charged and convicted of a violent crime that was not due to self-defense..then you've got a mental issue. THAT needs resolving before you're given a gun.

But I also believe that guns should be able to be worn everywhere except courthouses and jails (obvious reasons) unless the property owner says you can't wear it on the owner's property.

 

[Redhorse]

If you feel that the causes of gun violence are in dispute, by all means, study away. I'll give you some hints. We have a problem with drug running criminal gangs who account for a large number of the gun crimes. We have a legal system that releases all but the most violent offenders well before their sentence is up. We have a problem with the disintegration of the family structure, where many young men grow up fatherless.



Why? Is it in dispute? If you believe it to be untrue, prove me wrong. I'll give you another hint, you can't.



Because guns are common here, and that they make a very effective tool for someone hellbent on suicide, it would stand to reason that we would have more gun suicides than Japan where guns are rare. What does not stand to reason, is that by removing guns, we would have a dramatically lower suicide rate. People committed to taking their own life will find another tool. Just as a criminal without a gun will also find another tool.

If a magic wand could be waved, and all guns were gone tomorrow, we would have no gun crime, no gun suicides, no gun accidents...Since this is not going to happen, it just makes more sense to take on the root problems and not the tool.

I'm just curious, do you believe that we have an individual right to keep and bear arms, guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment?

That still wouldn't solve the crime problem in this country. People would still just use knives and ball bats. Personally, if someone comes swinging a bat at me I'd prefer to shoot them. These librials fail to see they're a bunch of idiots who don't know how to run a country.

 

[jbombelli]

Nah, guns are not the cause of anything, easy access to guns by absolutely anyone is.

Look, folks! We got another anti-gunner here on INGO!

 

[actaeon277]

Look, folks! We got another anti-gunner here on INGO!

Then you have a chance to hone your debating skills. Otherwise we're just preaching to the choir.

 

[The Spud]

We need a blue ribbon study commission to ascertain the validity of these studies study done.

http://youtu.be/uTmfwklFM-M

 

[Expat]

Then you have a chance to hone your debating skills. Otherwise we're just preaching to the choir.

They aren't here to debate. I don't know about this guy but I think most of them have been Dem operatives here to disrupt our harmony

 

[ghuns]

They aren't here to debate. I don't know about this guy but I think most of them have been Dem operatives here to disrupt our harmony

Harmony? Been in an OC/CC thread lately?

 

[actaeon277]

They aren't here to debate. I don't know about this guy but I think most of them have been Dem operatives here to disrupt our harmony

Than make him look silly.
Or ignore.