OC carry caused some problems for me today

[ultraspec]

jmiller, i agree with you, some people look at stuff very strangly and i wish we had more control over what calls we as coppers needed to go to. BELIEVE ME we wouldn't go to at least half. I was sent to change the batteries in an old mans hearing aid once and his son was 5 minutes away. I can not even begin to say how THAT was criminally related, but I got sent anyway.We are taught not to dismiss anything as a threat, no matter how insignificant it may be. In this day and age you just can not chance it, BUT you can still be civil and nice in most cases. We appreciate those of you that respect our service, we really do. It is not often we hear that. Again, I took this gig to help our citizens, no one told us that alot of times we needed to have a cristal ball and be an expert in everything from constitutional law to medicine. Most of us try our best. Hopefully my ramblings made some type of sense.

Amen, not to mention expert on parenting, marriage counseling, expert on civil law questions, everything police and gun related, aliens, ufo's, and pretty much anything else you can think of.

 

[theweakerbrother]

I'm laughing at the idea that police officers are ever reprimanded at anything other than disobeying a direct order from a superior (hyperbole). Jobs, no matter where they are, are political in nature and disagreeing with whomever is your boss will always have greater ramifications than worrying yourself about a dumb civilian's rights. Police officers will always receive catchy phrase benefits like "in the name of safety" and "he was just doing his job" to whatever is sacrificed at the expensive of the right of the individual. Many of you already agree with this and that makes me feel uncomfortable. I don't have any made up statistics to present to you but I would say that more often than not, society gives the benefit of the doubt to the boy in blue or brown at the expense of the right of the civilian almost every time.

But a bigger problem than any of this is if the one experiencing the infringement never complains about it through the appropriate channels, even if it doesn't receive a benefit in the short term. People are lazy and hate to deal with "customer service" type interactions. If a higher up receives enough "complaints" it may bring about change through no other channel than by laziness of not wanting to deal with future "customer service" interactions. Everyone hates to be in the hot seat.

 

[Hammerhead]

Hopefully, one of the LEO's that are following this thread will correct me if Im wrong on this---

I don't know how the Ft. Wayne cruisers are equipped, but isn't it likely that the young officer had checked the address he was dispatched to on a laptop, before he arrived? If so, he may have had greyhound's name, and maybe driver's license photo. It seems to me he already knew greyhound has an LTCH, since he requested to see it rather than any other ID.

If he had this info, then he would also know that he wasn't dealing with a lowlife, as some have suggested he has been conditioned to. This guy has a Wyatt Earp complex, and I hope greyhound will follow up with a formal complaint to put the brakes on the guy's poor attitude. Hopefully, that would turn the guy around, make him a better cop.

I'm not a LEO, but I have an answer to your question. The fact that the officer asked for the LTCH might indicate that he knows some law. Greyhound is not required to provide ID if there's no crime or evidence of a crime. He's also not required to provide his driver's license because he wasn't driving. Since the officer thought that carrying was the crime, the LTCH is an affirmative defense against that, notwithstanding the fact that he was on his own property where it's not required. He asked for the LTCH because he didn't know the rest of the IC about carrying on one's property, about OC, or about not being required to actually interact with LEOs.

Greyhound was being a nice guy. Most people try to be when initially interacting with LEOs. There's nothing wrong with that. However, every time people attempt to be nice and this sort of thing happens, people become jaded and come to expect crap from LEO encounters. This makes things go down hill quick and then the circle continues.

 

[Kutnupe14]

How is it doctors and nurses can remember thousands of medicines, symptoms, and medical conditions but a cop cannot remember the handful of laws they deal with on a regular basis?

I'm willing to bet that somebody is going to say that the doctors and nurses go to school for a long while...I think police should do the same.

You bring up an interesting point. Do they have that stuff committed to memory? I'd probably say not. Doctors misdiagnose, and sometimes kill (or cut off the wrong leg), fairly regularly.... and that's after 8 years of education.

 

[halfmileharry]

You bring up an interesting point. Do they have that stuff committed to memory? I'd probably say not. Doctors misdiagnose, and sometimes kill (or cut off the wrong leg), fairly regularly.... and that's after 8 years of education.

and they get paid a lot more!!

 

[maxmayhem]

File a complaint...there are quite a few fort wayne police officers that are D!cks...cant really stand the ones i know too well...this really pi$$e$ me off...

 

[trpsteelnuts]

File the cpmplaint, the guy i work with needs about 1000 on them. Judge those who do a job only after you have walked in their shoes cuz if u expect perfection ur gonna be disapointed.This job is not easy, but some make it harder on those of us TRYING to do good.

 

[ATM]

File the cpmplaint, the guy i work with needs about 1000 on them. Judge those who do a job only after you have walked in their shoes cuz if u expect perfection ur gonna be disapointed.This job is not easy, but some make it harder on those of us TRYING to do good.

Those trying to do good are welcome to join in policing the attitudes and behaviors of those they work with who they feel need these complaints filed on them.
Internal complaints would likely be treated more seriously than external complaints.

Thanks for your efforts and service.

 

[mrortega]

It's not like any LEO has to memorize a gun law encyclopedia. He/she just has to know a few simple facts:
1) You don't need any license to possess or carry on your own property, whether domicile or business.
2) You can carry open or concealed with a valid life-time or temporary license. There are just a few places you can't carry: schools, school functions, federal buildings or local govt buildings that have a court room, and a few other places. Public parks, zoos and such are now not able to exclude lawful carry. Did you hear that, Chief? Did you train your people like you should have? You'll bust my a** if I'm not up on the tiniest change in traffic laws that all citizens are expected to know.
3) You can be barred from carrying on private property if the owner/manager posts or asks you to leave. After that it is some form of trespass.

All the Evansville cops had to know when approaching Mr. Titanium_Frost at the zoo was that if he had a valid license the conversation was over. They either didn't know that or didn't care. Training doesn't change the nature of an a**hole or thug. A properly trained and dispositioned LEO would have known that TF was legal and the management at the zoo who called them should have been instructed in the law. Was he brandishing his weapon? Was he showing it in any threatening way? No?? Then good day, madam. Call us if you see any criminal activity.

 

[Caleb]

They don't. Medical professionals use lots of referrence books and consults.

It has been discussed how these MWG calls are not as frequent as people feel. You really have no idea how many laws there are and how many cops remember and do not remember.

You bring up an interesting point. Do they have that stuff committed to memory? I'd probably say not. Doctors misdiagnose, and sometimes kill (or cut off the wrong leg), fairly regularly.... and that's after 8 years of education.

It's not like any LEO has to memorize a gun law encyclopedia. He/she just has to know a few simple facts:
1) You don't need any license to possess or carry on your own property, whether domicile or business.
2) You can carry open or concealed with a valid life-time or temporary license. There are just a few places you can't carry: schools, school functions, federal buildings or local govt buildings that have a court room, and a few other places. Public parks, zoos and such are now not able to exclude lawful carry. Did you hear that, Chief? Did you train your people like you should have? You'll bust my a** if I'm not up on the tiniest change in traffic laws that all citizens are expected to know.
3) You can be barred from carrying on private property if the owner/manager posts or asks you to leave. After that it is some form of trespass.

All the Evansville cops had to know when approaching Mr. Titanium_Frost at the zoo was that if he had a valid license the conversation was over. They either didn't know that or didn't care. Training doesn't change the nature of an a**hole or thug. A properly trained and dispositioned LEO would have known that TF was legal and the management at the zoo who called them should have been instructed in the law. Was he brandishing his weapon? Was he showing it in any threatening way? No?? Then good day, madam. Call us if you see any criminal activity.

ding-ding-ding-ding

 

[Hotdoger]

It's not like any LEO has to memorize a gun law encyclopedia. He/she just has to know a few simple facts:
1) You don't need any license to possess or carry on your own property, whether domicile or business.
2) You can carry open or concealed with a valid life-time or temporary license. There are just a few places you can't carry: schools, school functions, federal buildings or local govt buildings that have a court room, and a few other places. Public parks, zoos and such are now not able to exclude lawful carry. Did you hear that, Chief? Did you train your people like you should have? You'll bust my a** if I'm not up on the tiniest change in traffic laws that all citizens are expected to know.
3) You can be barred from carrying on private property if the owner/manager posts or asks you to leave. After that it is some form of trespass.

All the Evansville cops had to know when approaching Mr. Titanium_Frost at the zoo was that if he had a valid license the conversation was over. They either didn't know that or didn't care. Training doesn't change the nature of an a**hole or thug. A properly trained and dispositioned LEO would have known that TF was legal and the management at the zoo who called them should have been instructed in the law. Was he brandishing his weapon? Was he showing it in any threatening way? No?? Then good day, madam. Call us if you see any criminal activity.

+1 great post.

 

[henktermaat]

Just another isolated incident.

 

[GeneralCarver]

So, today I am mowing my yard, cleaning up leaves, etc. I am carrying a G19 in a holster on my belt, like I usually do. Well, I got this feeling that I was being watched. I was. A FW police officer had pulled up to my yard and was exiting his vehicle. I shut off the mower and gave the officer a big smile, said hello, and approached him. He asked to see my LTCH. I complied but asked why in a friendly tone. He looked at me and said, "because I said so". I let a laugh escape me bc I was so shocked. He asked me what was so funny. I told him that there was nothing funny about what was happening. Again, I asked him what the problem was, again in a very friendly manner. He said to chill out and wait until I was spoken to.

Can you feel what I was feeling right now? I was getting scared.

It turns out my neighbor called it in bc he thought that carrying a gun was illegal. I nicely informed the officer that I do not even need a LTCH to carry on my own property and my LTCH allows me to carry openly or concealed. It didn't go well after that.

In the end it took a supervisor and two neighbors standing by as witnesses to stop this jerk off from railroading me.

I am STILL angry. To try to calm this moron down I told him I am a former po and my brother is still a po. To that he replied, "I am duly impressed". so insulting and humiliating. When it was all over I asked the officer in front of his supervisor for an apology for the way I was treated. That didn't go over well either.

I am so pissed still I can hardly see straight. This is why I tend to conceal carry. Too many uneducated, misinformed idiots in blue.

I understand that your angry that you had to "show your papers" on your own property. I guess anyone would be. However, that officer would not have known if that was your property. I do believe that police do have the right to hold someone out and about and ask to see their I.D. or ask them a few questions relating to a complaint.

I think you contributed to the situation be engaging in too much conversation with the officer and also trying to "educate" him. I think arguments and discussions with field officers is the wrong approach to "educating" police.

Instead, I think it would have been better if you had just complied with his request to see your ID or permit. Don't act overly nice or happy to see police. Show your ID when asked. Answer basic questions about what your doing etc. If the police want to lecture you on why you shouldn't open carry, let them. But let them talk with thin air. Simply don't respond to questions that you know they are asking you to give you a hard time. You were doing nothing wrong, so you do not have to fear any real consequences, even if the officer arrested you for some "b.s." just because he was mad.

If you want to educate police, I think the best way is to do it via complaints to the department and also law suits for things that are bad enough.

Just my thoughts.
All the best.

 

[Rookie]

They would be able to ask for LTCH not I.D. Carrying a handgun without a pink card is not an ordinance violation or infraction.

 

[Hoosierdood]

I understand that your angry that you had to "show your papers" on your own property. I guess anyone would be. However, that officer would not have known if that was your property. I do believe that police do have the right to hold someone out and about and ask to see their I.D. or ask them a few questions relating to a complaint.

I think you contributed to the situation be engaging in too much conversation with the officer and also trying to "educate" him. I think arguments and discussions with field officers is the wrong approach to "educating" police.

Instead, I think it would have been better if you had just complied with his request to see your ID or permit. Don't act overly nice or happy to see police. Show your ID when asked. Answer basic questions about what your doing etc. If the police want to lecture you on why you shouldn't open carry, let them. But let them talk with thin air. Simply don't respond to questions that you know they are asking you to give you a hard time. You were doing nothing wrong, so you do not have to fear any real consequences, even if the officer arrested you for some "b.s." just because he was mad.

If you want to educate police, I think the best way is to do it via complaints to the department and also law suits for things that are bad enough.

Just my thoughts.
All the best.

I think someone needs to go back and read the 4th amendment.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

I think someone needs to go back and read the 4th amendment.

And I would also suggest reading the THREAD...

 

[Rookie]

 

[travisf]

So you can OC in Indiana when you are NOT on your property as well? This LTC stuff gets confusing.

 

[Bunnykid68]

So you can OC in Indiana when you are NOT on your property as well? This LTC stuff gets confusing.

On your property no LTCH needed.
Off your property LTCH needed unless you are on someones private property and they give you permission.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Anyone else think it would be a good idea to hand out a 1 page listing of all the laws regarding LTCH and firearms in general in IN when you apply for a LTCH? Give one to the cops as well...

AJG357, I have to spread it around though. And thanks Rookie.