Oh No...Another .358 thread ...?

[redneckmedic]

Thought I might dabble a bit into the .358 xxx custom build myself. I've done the necessary back reading to not be completely ignorant, yet still over whelmed by the options.

What I've Learned- It seems there are two major contenders in the wildcat IN deer legal cartridge arena. The .358 Hoosier and the .358 WSSM, I say that full aware that there several runner ups that offer very similar ballistics and have some pro's/con's against the before mentioned rounds. The reality is though that there is < 100fps and <100lbs of NRG at 100/200/300yrd with the Hoosier, the WSSM being on top. It seems that the WSSM is a bit more challenging for material, both in brass formation and recruiting the right host rifle. Minus those two details, all are fairly equal.... please correct me if my research is wrong.

What I've Narrowed it down to- So since all of my IN hunting is <300, and reality <250 I don't care witch cartridge I go with. Since I will be handloading my own rounds, doing the extra work with annealing and trimming would be good for me to learn as well, so not a terrible inconvenience.

I am fairly stuck on the idea of building off a single shot platform on this journey, for a few reasons, the #1 being economics. If I lean toward the T/C family I can build several platforms off of the same frame. I don't have to worry about gunsmithing a host rifle.

My questions-

Is the above information correct? If my assumptions are wrong then any forward planning will be moot.

Does anyone have a 358 Hoosier/WSSM in central Indiana, that would be willing to let me shoot a few, so I know what I'm getting in to?

Will a T/C build have enough weight to compensate for manageable hunting recoil?

What is the difference between the T/C encore and contender rifles?

What are the components to the T/Cs? Ive found it to be the frame (with rifle or pistol stocks), the barrel, and some kind of adapter...?

Is there an INGO advertiser that I can give my business to for this build and brass? (I think I know one, but I'm looking for them to speak up)

Any other information on this topic would be great. I'm not hunting this year for the following reason however I would like ballistics and doping done by next season. recent_addition_hinders_future_purchases



Thanks,
RNM

 

[42769vette]

I've got 2 358 bfg's. I litterally could not be happier. Before season I went 5 for 5 on a 4 inch plate at 300 yards. That's dead deer with ease.

I have one on a blueprinted model 70, and one on a tc prohunter. Both have bias breaks, the prohunter needed it, with the 70 I said "why not"

 

[redneckmedic]

I've got 2 358 bfg's. I litterally could not be happier. Before season I went 5 for 5 on a 4 inch plate at 300 yards. That's dead deer with ease.

I have one on a blueprinted model 70, and one on a tc prohunter. Both have bias breaks, the prohunter needed it, with the 70 I said "why not"

Please excuse my ignorance... WTH is a bias break? (muzzle break?)

Have you found your case life span yet (# of firings)?

Have you found much of a recoil difference btwn the two rifles?

I'm assuming you bought your barrels and dies from the same vendor...?

Is there a link where I can look up prices on custom barrels vs inventory barrels on the BFG?

 

[shibumiseeker]

I know one guy who threw his $2000 .358hoosier out of the tree this afternoon...

 

[42769vette]

Please excuse my ignorance... WTH is a bias break? (muzzle break?)

Have you found your case life span yet (# of firings)?

Have you found much of a recoil difference btwn the two rifles?

I'm assuming you bought your barrels and dies from the same vendor...?

Is there a link where I can look up prices on custom barrels vs inventory barrels on the BFG?

Sorry about the above post, its a pain to post from my phone.

Both rifles have Vias breaks. A bread helps tame recoil wich the prohunter frame really needed.

I bought all my brass from bfg, I dont know what my case life is, i have 5 firings on alot of my brass and its still going strong.

There is alot of recoil diffrence the rifles. The prohunter is a light weight rifle, the model 79 has a 26 inch #5 shelin select match barrel and a mcm stock so its a pretty heavy rifle. with the break both are managable, without the brake the model 70 is managable.

I bought everything and rented a reamer from the same place. he is not a vendor on ingo, but he is a good man to deal with. I had a question this year about switching powder (last minute i ran out of 10x) and I called. 2 years after I purchased from him he was still just as helpful as he was day one
BFG Design, Wildcat Cartridge Design, Custom Barrels, Brass, Bullets and Dies.


All I bought for the prohunter was the barrel. Im thinking it was about 400 bucks, then the brake was a extra 100. I did the threading myself.

The model 70 was quite a bit more. I did all the machine work myself, but I still have about 1300 in parts before I get to scope and rings

 

[kludge]

I went with a bolt because I prefer bolts. and I went with the WSSM beacuse 1.8" wasn't an option. If it were I would have gone a different route... probably. On the other hand, with an Encore you get ~3 more inches of barrel for the same length rifle, or a rifle that's 3" shorter -- that's what I would do -- slung over my shoulder it would catch on far fewer branches.


The recoil of the WSSM is about like a 30-06, and has the same muzzle energy - go figure. You don't even feel it with the hunting adrenaline.

This weekend was my third season with the rifle and I finally got a shot off...

I took three deer this weekend, two were bang/flops and one ran less than 10 seconds (and that was probably my fault). All three shot hit right where I expeted them to hit, but the one deer the ran was ~65 yds and bent toward me more than I expected, so even though the entrance was right where I wanted it and passed through a lung, the exit was a bit too far back. An 8 pt at 40 yards was a bang/flop, double lung and heart, and the "long" 120 yard shot was exactly 3" above POI, right where it was supposed to be another double lung bang/flop.

It's a lot more gun than is needed for little whitetail deer.

Entrance and exit wounds are 2-3 times as big as what I'm used to with my .454 Casull SRH, and a lot more "soup".Entrance wounds with the .454 are bullet size and exit wounds are thumb-nickle size.

My barrel was made by McGowen and shoots 1/2" groups with my 200gr Hornady bullets.

 

[amafrank]

There is also the 358 WSM-IN which is the longer 1.8" case. It appears that brass is easier to make up than the wssm and so far with the rifles a friend has built they have more than 10 loads per case with no cracks. He has some brass that he uses to test rifles he builds that have more than 17 loads ea. They are shooting 150 gr bullets at 3300fps, 180's at over 3100, 200's and 225s are doing over 2900. A number of owners have gotten their deer alread this year and most were owners of the WSSM rifles for the last few years. It seemed to me that the extra .125" of the WSM cases wouldn't be worth the effort but it appears I was mistaken. The owners are happy with the new 1.8" cartridge and prep time is less. Hornady is making dies specifically for this cartridge and I know there have been at least 20-30 rifles built by my friend this year. He did over 100 of the shorter cased 358 WSSMs in the last few years and they've been very popular as well. Some have gone out west for Elk and Antelope though it seems a bit much for the Antelope. . .
Most of his rifles have Brakes to reduce recoil and they do work. They are mostly Rem 700's though he has done a couple brownings, savages and howas.
I suppose that when you consider the fact that folks have been shooting deer with 38 cal pistols for years these high powered rifles are a bit overkill. On the other hand it opens the range up a bit and makes for a quicker kill.
Frank

 

[kludge]

There is also the 358 WSM-IN which is the longer 1.8" case. It appears that brass is easier to make up than the wssm

I highly doubt that. Either the same number of steps or more for the 1.8" WSM. Depending on your reamer and die design for the WSSM some people don't have to turn the necks. Neck turning of the 1.8" WSM is going to be mandatory after squishing the body/shoulder of the WSM parent case through the forming/sizing die. A lot more to cut off too. The WSSM can be done in a standard trimmer; there's too much coming off the 1.8" WSM so it would have to be cut off another way, then trimmed to even/sqaure up the case mouth. Also with the 1.8" WSM reforming the shoulder you'll have to fire form... not needed on the WSSM, since you're just necking up.

But... 200gr at over 2900fps is the same number I've heard, which with the new Accubond -- and I'm trying to recall the ballistic calculations I did -- it would seem that you would have enough velocity and energy at 400 yards to make a good elk cartridge... if you have the skills.

In my case, considering the size of the game, I don't need any more recoil.

 

[mwilson]

ive got a .358 idc( bfg) and a .358 winchester with just a shortened neck. my son has killed 3 deer with the idc. 2 at 75 yards and 1 today at 200 yards. none have gone more than 30 yards. a good friend of mine shot a deer at 60 yards with it. said he has never seen one go down that fast. 225 sgk bullet will do alot of damage. no bullets recovered. all passed thru.
havent shot anything with the 358 winchester yet but i expect the same results. both will run right at 2400fps with the 225 bullets. if your looking for something simple the 358 winchester is it. trim the necks down and go shoot it. no case forming or neck turning required

 

[Hookeye]

FWIW the WSSM .358 is reportedly too hot for the Encore frame if pushing things over 2700 FPS.

 

[42769vette]

FWIW the WSSM .358 is reportedly too hot for the Encore frame if pushing things over 2700 FPS.

My encore 358 bfg has pushed rounds over 2700 fps with no problems

 

[kludge]

if your looking for something simple the 358 winchester is it. trim the necks down and go shoot it. no case forming or neck turning required

Do you worry about neck tension/crimp? Do you load to standard .358 Win COL?

And yes, right around 2400fps with 225gr SGK.

 

[redneckmedic]

FWIW the WSSM .358 is reportedly too hot for the Encore frame if pushing things over 2700 FPS.

My encore 358 bfg has pushed rounds over 2700 fps with no problems

Per convo with Bryan and on his BFG website, the T/C barrels are have issues with his last supplier. The were having "run out" and coming off the frame due to (my guess) spec changes. He did advise that a shilin or any other quality barrel stock shouldn't have this issue, but that was the case and he has temp discontinued using his last supplier.

 

[Hookeye]

My encore 358 bfg has pushed rounds over 2700 fps with no problems

Bell M and others say it'll stretch the frame.

 

[Igotgills2]

I'm running 225 AB's on a TC pro hunter w/ MGM barrel at ~2520fps, 1.610" case w/o any issues. 4-5" groups at 300yds until I improve my glass, or learn to shoot better. Recoil is reasonable in my book, significantly less than any slug gun I've had. I can put 20 rounds thru it without feeling like my arm is gonna fall off.

There are several options out on this platform now from 1.6"-1.8". I'm sure Kludge, Vette and a few others can chime in on this.... Make sure you know exactly what you are getting, and work up from verified reamer prints. Make lotsa measurements, write 'em down, double check them, then check them again. Put in the time to develop "your" loads. This is something that you do not want to rush or you will miss something, especially if you are doing it on your own. Took me 3 months to run thru a few bullet/powder combination options out there and arrive at one I felt my gun liked best. Not saying there aren't more options, just haven't explored them yet.

Lots of fun learning, developing and realizing what this Wildcat can really accomplish.

Good Luck!!

 

[redneckmedic]

I'm running 225 AB's on a TC pro hunter w/ MGM barrel at ~2520fps, 1.610" case w/o any issues. 4-5" groups at 300yds until I improve my glass, or learn to shoot better. Recoil is reasonable in my book, significantly less than any slug gun I've had. I can put 20 rounds thru it without feeling like my arm is gonna fall off.

There are several options out on this platform now from 1.6"-1.8". I'm sure Kludge, Vette and a few others can chime in on this.... Make sure you know exactly what you are getting, and work up from verified reamer prints. Make lotsa measurements, write 'em down, double check them, then check them again. Put in the time to develop "your" loads. This is something that you do not want to rush or you will miss something, especially if you are doing it on your own. Took me 3 months to run thru a few bullet/powder combination options out there and arrive at one I felt my gun liked best. Not saying there aren't more options, just haven't explored them yet.

Lots of fun learning, developing and realizing what this Wildcat can really accomplish.

Good Luck!!

Thanks for that input Igotgills, of all folks on this site, I can first hand account that working up a load patiently and detailed as possible is old hat for vette. I've seen him weight and group bullets from the same lot # and do the same to cases, for consistency. His reloading room has a shooting window a yard stick away from his press. And he has worked up at least a dozen rounds this way, not to mention those he does load development for.

 

[mwilson]

Do you worry about neck tension/crimp? Do you load to standard .358 Win COL?

And yes, right around 2400fps with 225gr SGK.

as far as neck tension ive found if i run the short neck into my .357 mag die it sqeezes the neck down to get more than enough tension on the bullet. it takes several hits with my bullet puller to remove them. have not tried to crimp them as i see no need. you cannot load a standard bullet, as in 225 sgk bullet far enough out to reach standard COL. and they do not shoot well out of my gun. the barnes tsx 225 will seat out to 2.84 and shoot right at an inch and sometimes a little under.

 

[42769vette]

Also i forgot to mention (I assume you know) your welcome to come try either of mine out.

 

[kludge]

as far as neck tension ive found if i run the short neck into my .357 mag die it sqeezes the neck down to get more than enough tension on the bullet. it takes several hits with my bullet puller to remove them. have not tried to crimp them as i see no need. you cannot load a standard bullet, as in 225 sgk bullet far enough out to reach standard COL. and they do not shoot well out of my gun. the barnes tsx 225 will seat out to 2.84 and shoot right at an inch and sometimes a little under.

I wonder then, assuming a custom barrel, if you could run a smaller caliber .308 family reamer to full depth, then run a .358 Win reamer in about 0.215" short to get exactly the neck and throat that you wanted for the 1.8" .358 Win. But then you can still use standard (not cu$tom) reloading dies, and no custom reamer needed. I figure this would save $300 to make the rifle (the cost of custom dies and a reamer over standard dies and reamers the barrel maker already has.).

Then later, if you desired you could always run the .358 Win reamer full depth to make a standard .358 Win chamber.

Again, this all assumes you will be making a custom barrel rather than something already chambered for .358 Win.

 

[amafrank]

I highly doubt that. Either the same number of steps or more for the 1.8" WSM. Depending on your reamer and die design for the WSSM some people don't have to turn the necks. Neck turning of the 1.8" WSM is going to be mandatory after squishing the body/shoulder of the WSM parent case through the forming/sizing die. A lot more to cut off too. The WSSM can be done in a standard trimmer; there's too much coming off the 1.8" WSM so it would have to be cut off another way, then trimmed to even/sqaure up the case mouth. Also with the 1.8" WSM reforming the shoulder you'll have to fire form... not needed on the WSSM, since you're just necking up.

I guess my comment was based on watching friends work the cases. On the WSSM cases they necked up by fireforming with cornmeal, then ran them through the dies, trimmed and neckturned. With the WSM they trimmed, ran them through the die and neckturned. When they tried to just expand the necks in the WSSM's they found that they were cracking a lot of necks and thats why they went to the fireforming step. Some may not be doing that and maybe its about the same for both.....


Frank