Optical Focus: On the front sight or on the target?

[TFin04]

I have my own beliefs/opinions/practices of this topic but I want to drum up some conversation.

Do you shoot both eyes open or one eye closed?
Is your focus (optical clarity) on your front sight, or on your target?
Is your focus (mental focus, paying attention to, etc) on your front sight, or on your target?

Approach this from a scenario of a dynamic shooting competition (multiple targets, no shoots, etc. IDPA/IPSC/USPSA/Etc) and/or a defensive shooting role.

Discuss.

 

[jblomenberg16]

I've been shooting shotguns (skeet/trap) with both eyes for a while, but can't seem to get my eyes to work quite right with rifles and pistols and irons. I can get it to work with red-dots.

I've tried shooting with both eyes open, but being a right handed shooter and left eye dominan has been difficult.

I'm getting a lot of double vision trying to use both eyes, especially as the left eye tries to take over.

 

[glock34]

Not sure what works for everyone but some days I feel like no better shooting that what I did I shot with both eyes closed.

 

[wolfy25]

-1 eye closed, my understanding is that both eyes open is better, but I haven't forced myself to switch yet.
-In general on the front sight. If the target is real close its probably just on the outline of the gun, but as they get further away I move towards front sight.
-In-between targets that are a reasonable distance apart I'll call the shot off the front sight "snap to the next target" then pick up the front sight(ideally, i don't always snap my eyes like I should).

 

[rvb]

my answer ... yes to all. and... it depends.

First, I don't think the answer is different for games or for defense. See what you need to in order to get the job done.

I mostly shoot w/ 2 eyes open... but I'm not afraid to say I sometimes lean on the dominant eye for tight shots. I'm not aware of closing my weak eye, but I do feel I squit it from time to time... if at that instant I feel it helps me see what I need to, I do it... vast majority of the time it's 2 eyes, and always 2 eyes open w/ not actually breaking a shot (moving/reloading, etc).

Highly suggest picking up Brian Enos' book. He discusses the different types of focus. Basically, see what you need to. Quick highlight....

1. On extremely close high speed shooting (like 4 targets / 8 shots in under a second, or like a classifier like Can You Count), I just keep my eyes moving. I'm aware of the target and the gun, but I can't say I focus on either. It takes a strong index and a total lack of tension.
2. The next level of focus is more on the target. Again for easier and high-speed shooting. But I am now aiming the gun, even if I'm not focused on the sights. Enos describes it as looking "through" the gun. Calling shots here for me is just based on where the gun is pointing.
3. The bulk of the shooting is the standard method of shifting the focus from target to sight. Better able to call the shot from reading the sights.
4. for the more difficult shots, the FS becomes even more important. Calling shots accurately requires a razer sharp focus on the sight.
5. And for the most difficult shots, the visual focus needs to have a razer sharp focus on the sights, but you need to really focus mentally on the trigger and ensure a perfect break.

You cannot say that one way or the other is the right way. If you do so you are limiting your abilities. To say you always need to perfectly see the front sight will keep you from acheiving true high speed shooting, and to say you never need to see it will keep you from hitting those 25yd head shots partly hidden by a no-shoot.

Seeing takes practice. You have to practice snapping your eyes from target to target. And you have to practice shifting focus from near to far. Yes, those physiological actions CAN be improved.

-rvb

 

[TFin04]

I wasn't saying there was a difference in gun/sight manipulation, I was saying they were similar.

I'm also not necessarily seeking advice, nor trying to give it in this post. I am just looking for others thoughts on the matter and see where other people stand on this topic, or perhaps some have never even considered it.

I've read Enos' book, but thanks.

 

[rvb]

I want to drum up some conversation.

I'm also not necessarily seeking advice, nor trying to give it in this post. I am just looking for others thoughts ...

alrighty, that's what I thought I was doing, discussing the topic.

I wasn't saying there was a difference in gun/sight manipulation, I was saying they were similar.

As part of the discussion (since others might feel there IS a difference), I just threw out that I don't see a difference related to this topic between games or real-world. I wasn't sure what you were saying with the "and/or" between the two scenarios. sounds like we agree. cool.

...perhaps some have never even considered it.
....
I've read Enos' book, but thanks.

perhaps those folks have not read Enos' book, so I thought it was a good thing to include ...as part of the discussion.

-rvb

 

[TFin04]

Your liberal use of "You" led me to believe your post was directed to me. Apologies if I mistook it.

Good information though, and I agree pretty much across the board. I'll put some of my own thoughts up later today when I have more time.

 

[Sailor]

Both eyes, front sight.

 

[slow1911s]

Two eyes and front sight 95% of the time. I think there are situations, like targets <1 yd, where you can get away with a target focus coupled with a well-established index. Some expert level shooters can get away with target focus at 2-3 yds on targets.

 

[BillD]

I've missed USPSA targets at 2 yds. Front sight focus is good.
I'm right handed and left eye dominant. I pretty much close my left eye.

 

[HICKMAN]

I've missed USPSA targets at 2 yds. Front sight focus is good.
I'm right handed and left eye dominant. I pretty much close my left eye.

I'm the same way, I'll squint to close my dominant left and be fine at 25 yards, but miss up close because I'm point shooting.

 

[jblomenberg16]

I was shooting a simulated course with a buddy last year, and he was encouraging me to shoot both eyes open.

It was horrible due to the left eye dominance / right handed shooting I mentioned earlier. Lots of double vision and difficulty focusing on anything.

I did find myself after the first 4 or 5 rounds actually shooting right handed, with my right eye closed and my left eye on the front sight. This happened more or less unintentionally. I was able to hit the target, but I was very crossed up with my grip and stance.

 

[rz317]

Almost always, I have both eyes open... even when using a scope, until magnification gets up past 4X. The only time I really find myself closing an eye is when I am sighting in or shooting groups from a rest.

When shooting a pistol at a match, especially in Indiana with the majority of club's bays being short, I find myself "looking through" the sights most of the time. If I'm right up on an array of hosers, I'm pretty much just indexing... and sometimes just see holes appear, just as I'm moving. For me, 20 yards is where things change substantially with pistol, andI find myself consciously notching up more. USPSA and 3-Gun are very different. I've been to several major 3-Gun matches where there has been arrays of steel way out there... 25 all the way out to 60, and I have found myself really bearing down and squinting to clear it. Lesson learned: don't shoot wimpy 125-130PF 9mm... bump it up to 135-140. It doesn't feel that much different and it's trajectory and knock down power with edge hits on steel past 25 is substantially better.

With a shotgun, I find myself always "looking through" the bead.

However with my Tactical-Optic 3-Gun rifle, focus is a weird thing. On cardboard 0-50yds I guess I'm just superimposing the reticule on the target, so I'm pretty much always target-focused. When it's a 10" steel plate at 300-500, then I'm not really sure what I'm focused on... I guess I'm looking at the reticule in relation to the plate, the gap of the hold over, etc. but as soon as I pull the trigger I'm looking if the dirt around the plate kicks up, to know if/how to adjust for a follow-up shot.

My mental focus depends on what game I'm playing. If it's USPSA pistol, even the longest 32-round stages are over so quickly, that I really don't have time to think, I just try to "float through" the stage. In 3-Gun, especially at a big match, the stages are so much longer and more mental because there's so much more going on that my focus can change several times during a stage... counting shotgun shells, hunting for targets, birdshot hold-offs for no-shoots, slug trajectory, rifle trajectory, etc. In 3-Gun, it's almost always "on", and I have no option other than to be "conscious behind the wheel".

RZ

 

[mhs]

Right (dominant) eye, front sight, left eye target. I'm not sure how it ended up this way.

 

[ega]

depends

I would say for me it depends on the distance. Up close ( target focus) mid-range distance my focus shifts to the sights.Clear sight pic and the target kinda fuzzy.

 

[TFin04]

If nothing else, this post proves that there are multiple ways to skin a cat. Several accomplished shooters in here and most with a little bit of a different take on the subject.

I personally shoot with both eyes open about 90% of the time, with an optical focus on my target or "looking through" my sights. If I get a hard optical focus on my sights, I end up seeing two targets blurred in the background and cant figure out which one to shoot at, esp when moving.

For difficult shots, I will squint one eye and resort back to a hard sight focus to make the shot.

 

[MTC]

Thanks all for sharing. I am not an accomplished shooter, having had some [never enough] training and limited match/competition experience. Having had it drilled in my head to always hard focus on the front sight, especially when zeroing rifles and/or as part of basic rifle marksmanship, it became habit to always close the non-firing eye in order to guarantee the hit [notwithstanding the trigger control issue]. This has resulted in slower times at matches trying to get that perfect sight picture.

Several years ago, after reading about the both eyes open technique, I got an aimpoint to try out and to aid in the transition to what seems to me a more natural, less fatiguing, more flexible method. Even so, old habits die hard, and it has still been an effort to relax that side.

However, I seeketh, and INGO provideth. I will now use BillD's avatar as a training aid to effortlessly keep both eyes open. And I do mean wide open. If that doesn't do it, I don't know what will.

 

[rvb]

I personally shoot with both eyes open about 90% of the time, with an optical focus on my target or "looking through" my sights. If I get a hard optical focus on my sights, I end up seeing two targets blurred in the background and cant figure out which one to shoot at, esp when moving.

So having two blurred sights doesn't bother you? Have you put thought or practice into why you prefer one over the other? It's the same parallax issue regardless...

And when you talk about focusing on the sights and not being able to find the target, are you switching your focus (first focus on and find the target, then bringing your focus back to the irons), or "riding" the irons as you move/transition?

-rvb

ps.
right eye: right "target", left "sights"
left eye: left "target", right "sights"

 

[rvb]

Right (dominant) eye, front sight, left eye target. I'm not sure how it ended up this way.

I've experienced this a few times myself, but I am not able to "make" it happen. when I've done it I've not been directing my focus at either, but rather somewhere in between (ie I see two sights and two targets)... If you can do that, I think that's pretty cool to be able to overlay those images...

-rvb