Options on a 22LR sub gun

[xryan.jacksonx]

So I'm considering the different possibilities on a 22lr machine gun. I'm really just wanting something fun to shoot at a relatively low cost.

Right now I'm looking at the following options:

AM 180
10/22 with registered conversion component
Lighting Link for AR 15 with dedicated 22 upper (DIAS is out of my price range)

Anyone have any experience or thoughts on the advantages/disadvantages of these options?

 

[ctbreitwieser]

If your willing to shuck out the cash for a dedicated 22 only, I'd get an AM180. Those things are just downright awesome. But it would definitely eat up my entire 22 stash in a hurry.

 

[30calmachinegunner]

Am180 will put a smile on anyone's face but the drums are a pain to load, the Norrell conversion for the 10/22 is top notch but your limited in not being able to change cal., the lightning link gives you more options.
Also don't forget about the Uzi, you can shoot 9mm,45,and 22lr or the MAC series which is probably the most versatile platform with all the different uppers available and it is also the least expensive option.

There are other options also but they're a little more obscure.

 

[xryan.jacksonx]

Am180 will put a smile on anyone's face but the drums are a pain to load, the Norrell conversion for the 10/22 is top notch but your limited in not being able to change cal., the lightning link gives you more options.
Also don't forget about the Uzi, you can shoot 9mm,45,and 22lr or the MAC series which is probably the most versatile platform with all the different uppers available and it is also the least expensive option.

There are other options also but they're a little more obscure.

I didn't really consider a MAC because of the high fire rate, but looking at the slow fire uppers, they seem pretty easy to use, just hard to get a hold of. For a Mac 11, Lage Upper, and a 22 conversion I'd still be at half the cost of an AM 180 or lightning link.

 

[digitalrebel80]

I didn't think the lightning link worked with the 22 uppers as it needs an AR bolt to function

 

[xryan.jacksonx]

I didn't think the lightning link worked with the 22 uppers as it needs an AR bolt to function

Looking through several web forums, that would appear to be correct.

I was really wanting something in a rifle style configuration, with a barrel somewhere in the range on 10-14 inches, but the MAC 11 route may be the best option as it can handle 22 or 9 mm.

 

[digitalrebel80]

Looking through several web forums, that would appear to be correct.

I was really wanting something in a rifle style configuration, with a barrel somewhere in the range on 10-14 inches, but the MAC 11 route may be the best option as it can handle 22 or 9 mm.

I agree the MAC11 is next on my list

 

[amafrank]

There are a number of different .22cal MG's out there. The 10/22 and AM180 are only 2 of them....
M11/9 conversions don't work that well and I wouldn't even consider that as an option if the .22 was the primary aim.

The AM180 is a wonderful piece when its working but very painful when its not. They aren't cheap either with costs for transferables in the $8-12K range. Drums can be a pain to load but with choices of 177,200,250 and 275rds per load they are longer lasting than all the other 22 mgs.

The Norrell 10/22 conversions are great. His system works very well but once again the costs are up there. I see them going for $8-10K. Mags are a problem just like with most .22 types. 25rd mags work great but any larger capacity mags tend to not run fast enough to keep up with the high rate of fire. Black dog mags seem to work well and are cheap enough to keep a lot of them around though.

The PPS50's are out there too. Most of them are open bolt conversions and some work , some don't. Mine works very well with drums but not with sticks. The stick mags have a lot of variation in height so they sometimes drag the bolt. These guns seem to run in the $5-7K region. I've worked on a couple closed bolt conversions and one worked very well, the other not at all. There are 50rd drum mags out there that work well with all the guns I've fired.

The Voere is a wonderful little rifle. It is a conversion of an Austrian open bolt semi auto that got imported back in the early 80's. SWD did the conversions by removing the disconnector. They seem to run very reliably and are nice to shoot. They look like little hunting rifles. Their problem is the availability of mags. They came with a 15rd mag and ammo disappears fast. I've been working on coming up with a mag conversion for mine but have been too busy to fool with it. With a good mag setup these guns would be the cats ass. They tend to go in the $4500-5500 range.

There are conversions of the old look-a-like AK's and M16's but they don't work very well for the most part and with costs in the $4-6K range aren't really worth considering.

There were some Numrich Arms made .22 cal thompsons but most of them never worked well. I've seen a few that had a lot of work done and ran ok but prices in the $7-10K range put them out of the serious running.

Drop in auto sears work well in the AR and my Ciener conversion works very well with my SP-1 and DIAS. This is one of the conversions that works well with some guns and not so much with others. Like the rest of the .22's the mags are the issue. You can buy more mags but top capacity that really works is about 30rd.

I have never seen a working lightning link in .22 cal. I don't think the bolt has enough momentum to trip the system. It takes more energy than a sear type.

One of the most fun .22s I've seen or had is the Ciener conversion for the thompsons. I bought the one that fits both the 1928 and the M1. The mags are a pain to load as all the other 22s are too but they seem to work well. Black dog has made a mag that fits the thompsons so you don't have to depend on ciener. The ciener conversions have caught a lot of flak for being expensive, quick to wear and for running too fast but I've got more than 12000 rds through my conversion and have had no wear issues. The one complaint I do see as realistic is the need to remove the ejector to install the insert barrel. Its a pain but not a deal breaker. I believe Merle Bitikofer (the Drum Doctor) has come up with his own thompson conversion to answer some of these complaints and if it works better than so much the better for that. I have no idea of the cost or availability of either conversion now but using one of these allows the use of a classic firearm and means you have an investment quality type gun which will likely hold its value much better than most of the .22 mgs. It also allows you to have a quality .22 cal MG as well.
There are a few other .22s out there but not in large numbers. Hope this rundown helps you in your research.

Frank

 

[digitalrebel80]

I thought it was the mac 10 22 that were hit and miss. I have heard nothing but good things about the lage 22 conversion for the mac 11. Have you tried one of these or heard other wise?

There are a number of different .22cal MG's out there. The 10/22 and AM180 are only 2 of them....
M11/9 conversions don't work that well and I wouldn't even consider that as an option if the .22 was the primary aim.

The AM180 is a wonderful piece when its working but very painful when its not. They aren't cheap either with costs for transferables in the $8-12K range. Drums can be a pain to load but with choices of 177,200,250 and 275rds per load they are longer lasting than all the other 22 mgs.

The Norrell 10/22 conversions are great. His system works very well but once again the costs are up there. I see them going for $8-10K. Mags are a problem just like with most .22 types. 25rd mags work great but any larger capacity mags tend to not run fast enough to keep up with the high rate of fire. Black dog mags seem to work well and are cheap enough to keep a lot of them around though.

The PPS50's are out there too. Most of them are open bolt conversions and some work , some don't. Mine works very well with drums but not with sticks. The stick mags have a lot of variation in height so they sometimes drag the bolt. These guns seem to run in the $5-7K region. I've worked on a couple closed bolt conversions and one worked very well, the other not at all. There are 50rd drum mags out there that work well with all the guns I've fired.

The Voere is a wonderful little rifle. It is a conversion of an Austrian open bolt semi auto that got imported back in the early 80's. SWD did the conversions by removing the disconnector. They seem to run very reliably and are nice to shoot. They look like little hunting rifles. Their problem is the availability of mags. They came with a 15rd mag and ammo disappears fast. I've been working on coming up with a mag conversion for mine but have been too busy to fool with it. With a good mag setup these guns would be the cats ass. They tend to go in the $4500-5500 range.

There are conversions of the old look-a-like AK's and M16's but they don't work very well for the most part and with costs in the $4-6K range aren't really worth considering.

There were some Numrich Arms made .22 cal thompsons but most of them never worked well. I've seen a few that had a lot of work done and ran ok but prices in the $7-10K range put them out of the serious running.

Drop in auto sears work well in the AR and my Ciener conversion works very well with my SP-1 and DIAS. This is one of the conversions that works well with some guns and not so much with others. Like the rest of the .22's the mags are the issue. You can buy more mags but top capacity that really works is about 30rd.

I have never seen a working lightning link in .22 cal. I don't think the bolt has enough momentum to trip the system. It takes more energy than a sear type.

One of the most fun .22s I've seen or had is the Ciener conversion for the thompsons. I bought the one that fits both the 1928 and the M1. The mags are a pain to load as all the other 22s are too but they seem to work well. Black dog has made a mag that fits the thompsons so you don't have to depend on ciener. The ciener conversions have caught a lot of flak for being expensive, quick to wear and for running too fast but I've got more than 12000 rds through my conversion and have had no wear issues. The one complaint I do see as realistic is the need to remove the ejector to install the insert barrel. Its a pain but not a deal breaker. I believe Merle Bitikofer (the Drum Doctor) has come up with his own thompson conversion to answer some of these complaints and if it works better than so much the better for that. I have no idea of the cost or availability of either conversion now but using one of these allows the use of a classic firearm and means you have an investment quality type gun which will likely hold its value much better than most of the .22 mgs. It also allows you to have a quality .22 cal MG as well.
There are a few other .22s out there but not in large numbers. Hope this rundown helps you in your research.

Frank

 

[xryan.jacksonx]

It would seem like the Lage 22 conversions would work well with the upper that they developed.

 

[xryan.jacksonx]

Also, Is there any work to get a Norrell 10/22 conversion in a host firearm?

 

[ctbreitwieser]

I didn't know an M11 was an option for you. I'd go with one of those with the Lage conversion. Mine runs about 95%. I've even got the AM180 drum adapter for it and I've had pretty good luck with it. It's a blast when it's running good. It takes quite a few rounds to get it broken in but it's been worth it for me.

 

[Leadeye]

AM 180s were fun to shoot, drum was slow and complicated to load and I could never get it to run well without a load of powdered graphite.

 

[xryan.jacksonx]

I didn't know an M11 was an option for you. I'd go with one of those with the Lage conversion. Mine runs about 95%. I've even got the AM180 drum adapter for it and I've had pretty good luck with it. It's a blast when it's running good. It takes quite a few rounds to get it broken in but it's been worth it for me.

It wasn't at first, but at least based on my initial look around it might be the best option if it can do both 9mm and 22lr with minimal amount of modification needed.

 

[Win52C]

You might consider a full size Uzi with a Subgun Ord conversion kit. They work well as compared to some of the older 22 conversions. The AM180 is fun but as stated before the mags are a pain. I've had both and prefer the Uzi.

 

[30calmachinegunner]

One of the more obscure guns AMAFRANK is talking about is the reising mdl 65, as far as I know there are 3 that are registered.

One thing you forgot to mention is the SABRE (5.56mm)upper for the macs, as well as the soumi upper(7.62x25) and don't just think M11 because the so called fat macs have all those uppers available too

 

[Beowulf]

One of the more obscure guns AMAFRANK is talking about is the reising mdl 65, as far as I know there are 3 that are registered.

One thing you forgot to mention is the SABRE (5.56mm)upper for the macs, as well as the soumi upper(7.62x25) and don't just think M11 because the so called fat macs have all those uppers available too

The Soumi uppers are in 9mm (that would be the AMP11 and MAX31 for the M11 and AMP 10 for the M10). I think Alliance Armament made a caliber conversion for the AMP 11 in 7.62x25 using PPSH43 mags (though all work and production on the AMP line seems to have stopped a while back to make room for the SABRE, so I don't know when or if they plan to go back into production). The SABRE in 5.56 is another great reason that MACs are pretty good plan for an entry level full auto. Keep in mind though that Lage only makes the MAX 11 22s for the M11s. Practical Solutions does have a .22 upper for the M10, but I know it takes some fitting to the lower and the mags are a bit funky. However, they are also cheaper than the Lage ($500 vs $800). I can't speak from personal experience though, as the .22 upper was on my to-buy list, but got superseded by the SABRE being released (plus the .22 shortage dropped it pretty low on my radar).

 

[Disposable Heart]

I had a Mac and sold it, literally two weeks before Lage intro'ed his .22LR uppers. I kicked myself for days on end afterwards and to add injury to insult, shot one at an INGO shoot. From my limited horsing, it ran well enough (it's .22 with cheap ammo, it had some hiccups as the day wore on...).

 

[Slow Hand]

One other option is the AC556. Its about the most trouble free with a .22 conversion that I've heard of.

AC-556 First Range Trip_0001.wmv - YouTube

 

[xryan.jacksonx]

One other option is the AC556. Its about the most trouble free with a .22 conversion that I've heard of.

AC-556 First Range Trip_0001.wmv - YouTube

Yeah.... I already own a converted full auto mini 14 and the 22 conversion kit. I didn't realize before I bought the 22 kit that the full auto functionality would not work with the 22 as the charging handle on the full auto conversion releases a trip lever that disengages the secondary sear once the bolt is in place. While the 22 conversion charging handle and spring are strong enough to trip the mechanism, it would require some modification to be able to do so and I'm not sure that it would work anyways as the bolt for the 22 kit does not lock in like the standard 223 bolt does.