Outrage Over Christian Prayer at PA State House During Muslim Rep Swear-In

[BugI02]

And some of the founding fathers even had slaves. So much for your Christian morality.

You do your argument no favor by pointing out that the Greeks had gods, either. Obviously, somebody's religion has to be BS. How fortunate that you belong to the "correct" one in this later stage of human history. Very lucky, indeed.

Are not the Greeks one of the important pillars of the thought and ethics of that enlightened God-free atheistic utopia you think you could live in if we could just stamp out Christianity in the public square? If they were right about some things, why not others?

 

[Route 45]

If you've ever studied religions and compared the basic tenets of their beliefs, there is a lot more in common than not IMHO. Even the pantheistic ones usually had a "head god" figure, with some lesser gods and demi-gods. The Native Americans had their Great Spirit. The Muslims have Allah. The Jews have G_d. I don't recall the "head god" of Hinduism. The Buddhists are a little harder to pin down because they kind of believe that "god" is in all of us.

So to my way of thinking, a common belief in something greater than ourselves seems to be the rule, and not the exception.
If some kind of shared experience is so widespread in such geographically diverse places, doesn't that give you pause? A simple yes, no, or maybe is acceptable since I don't want to run this thread into the ditch.

Getting off track, but...it's completely understandable to me that people are afraid of the unknown and seek the comfort that a god who loves them and an afterlife brings. Man seeks an understanding of all things around him, and when he doesn't understand something, he is likely to ascribe that thing to the supernatural. Mental illness used to be demon possession. Thunderstorms and solar eclipses used to be angry gods. Show an uncontacted Amazon tribesman a television, and he will think it is magic. As we evolve further, we understand more and more things that were though to be the work of god/gods.

In the most advanced countries, religion is fading away, albeit slowly. It is no longer the shared experience that it once may have been, although calling it a shared experience is a bit of a stretch in the first place. There have always been non-believers and people who identify for a certain religion mostly because of cultural reasons. Your point that religion is different in geographically diverse places points to the fact that your likelihood of being a Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. has more to do with where you are born than any divine factors.

 

[Route 45]

Are not the Greeks one of the important pillars of the thought and ethics of that enlightened God-free atheistic utopia you think you could live in if we could just stamp out Christianity in the public square? If they were right about some things, why not others?

Are you serious with this? If they were right about some things, why not others? Do you say the same about Hitler, because my gosh, he sure did make the trains run on time?

I imagine the same chutpah with which you claim to know the one "true" religion factors in when you assume that I'm some kind of member of an atheist movement and you know how I think. I don't dream of any god-free utopia, because something like that will not be attainable in my lifetime. There is no utopia, period, because humans are...well, human.

I would, however, like to avoid members of government announcing that "every knee will bend to Jesus" during official government functions, because non-thinking idiots who think this is "just fine" will be the ones howling loudest when "there is no god but allah, and Mohammed is his prophet" echoes through the halls of government. If you think it can't happen, take a drive through Minneapolis some sunny afternoon.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Getting off track, but...it's completely understandable to me that people are afraid of the unknown and seek the comfort that a god who loves them and an afterlife brings. Man seeks an understanding of all things around him, and when he doesn't understand something, he is likely to ascribe that thing to the supernatural. Mental illness used to be demon possession. Thunderstorms and solar eclipses used to be angry gods. Show an uncontacted Amazon tribesman a television, and he will think it is magic. As we evolve further, we understand more and more things that were though to be the work of god/gods.

In the most advanced countries, religion is fading away, albeit slowly. It is no longer the shared experience that it once may have been, although calling it a shared experience is a bit of a stretch in the first place. There have always been non-believers and people who identify for a certain religion mostly because of cultural reasons. Your point that religion is different in geographically diverse places points to the fact that your likelihood of being a Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. has more to do with where you are born than any divine factors.

I disagree with your second paragraph. I submit that in the modern age it has far less to do with where you are born. There are people of all those faiths literally all over the world. That's not to say that there aren't concentrated pockets of a predominant religion, but geographically speaking they're much more homogeneous than they were originally.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

I would, however, like to avoid members of government announcing that "every knee will bend to Jesus" during official government functions, because non-thinking idiots who think this is "just fine" will be the ones howling loudest when "there is no god but allah, and Mohammed is his prophet" echoes through the halls of government. If you think it can't happen, take a drive through Minneapolis some sunny afternoon.

I like my beer cold and my government secular.

 

[Route 45]

I disagree with your second paragraph. I submit that in the modern age it has far less to do with where you are born. There are people of all those faiths literally all over the world. That's not to say that there aren't concentrated pockets of a predominant religion, but geographically speaking they're much more homogeneous than they were originally.

There certainly are people of all faiths all across the world, but the numbers are generally not significant when compared to the whole population a given country. I can't think of one nation that is equal parts Christian, Muslim and Jewish, the 3 main religions.

The United States is generally regarded as one of the most diverse nations in the world.

Yet: https://news.gallup.com/poll/224642/2017-update-americans-religion.aspx

Many European countries are not very religious at all, except in a cultural sense. And in most countries where there are major parts of the population that identify as religious, the religion tends to be a variation on the same flavor. (ie: different Christian denominations, different sects of Muslims, etc.)

 

[BugI02]

Are you serious with this? If they were right about some things, why not others? Do you say the same about Hitler, because my gosh, he sure did make the trains run on time?

I imagine the same chutpah with which you claim to know the one "true" religion factors in when you assume that I'm some kind of member of an atheist movement and you know how I think. I don't dream of any god-free utopia, because something like that will not be attainable in my lifetime. There is no utopia, period, because humans are...well, human.

I would, however, like to avoid members of government announcing that "every knee will bend to Jesus" during official government functions, because non-thinking idiots who think this is "just fine" will be the ones howling loudest when "there is no god but allah, and Mohammed is his prophet" echoes through the halls of government. If you think it can't happen, take a drive through Minneapolis some sunny afternoon.

The point was the Greeks developed one of the most erudite and advanced civilzations of their day and some of their deepest thinking echoes down the ages and informs some of the most advanced civilizations of our day. They did that without feeling the need to eliminate god(s) from everyday life. Perhaps there is more we could learn from them than how to argue and the rudiments of trigonometry

As for "... the same chutpah[sic] with which you claim to know the one "true" religion factors in when you assume that I'm some kind of member of an atheist movement and you know how I think" there would seem to be enough of that guilt to go around, Mr Pot

I will confess that the more tight-jawed people get about anything to do with God, the more I expect them to be atheists. They're quite militant about it. Personal experience has taught me that they cling to their beliefs about God as tightly as any other religion does, and belief in no God is indistinguishable from any other religion in the faith it requires

 

[fullmetaljesus]

belief in no God is indistinguishable from any other religion in the faith it requires

And bald is a hair color.

 

[Denny347]

belief in no God is indistinguishable from any other religion in the faith it requires

Um...faith=belief w/o proof. So NOT believing because there is no proof has nothing to do with faith.

 

[rvb]

Um...faith=belief w/o proof. So NOT believing because there is no proof has nothing to do with faith.

PROVE there is no God.

 

[Route 45]

And bald is a hair color.

One of my favorite hobbies is not collecting stamps.

 

[PaulF]

PROVE there is no God.

Playground rules? Already? We're only on page two.

The burden of proof rests entirely on the party making claim...see Hitchens's razor, and Christianity makes some...um, bold, claims. Due to the nature of the claims many cannot be fact checked at all. Of those that can...a great many are provably wrong. As a Christian you think that you worship the One True God. You do understand that every idolator in human history thought the very same thing, right?

I have thought about this a lot, and I'm reasonably certain you have considered your position carefully as well. I'll tell you what I think...

Humans make gods. Over the course of human history mankind has created so many gods we literally cannot count them all. They cannot all be real, but they can all be false. What makes yours different than all the other gods...the gods we both already agree are total fiction?

I don't think there is one.

 

[PaulF]

The point was the Greeks developed one of the most erudite and advanced civilzations of their day and some of their deepest thinking echoes down the ages and informs some of the most advanced civilizations of our day. They did that without feeling the need to eliminate god(s) from everyday life. Perhaps there is more we could learn from them than how to argue and the rudiments of trigonometry

As for "... the same chutpah[sic] with which you claim to know the one "true" religion factors in when you assume that I'm some kind of member of an atheist movement and you know how I think" there would seem to be enough of that guilt to go around, Mr Pot

I will confess that the more tight-jawed people get about anything to do with God, the more I expect them to be atheists. They're quite militant about it. Personal experience has taught me that they cling to their beliefs about God as tightly as any other religion does, and belief in no God is indistinguishable from any other religion in the faith it requires

Were the Greek gods real? Did the Greeks receive their morality from their gods, or were the gods perhaps a device used to convey those mores within their broader culture?

Respectfully, I'd like to address the bolded.

I strongly disagree. I will gladly change my position on gods and the supernatural when I have verifiable evidence that any of it at all is real.

Do you have that evidence?

 

[churchmouse]

 

[PaulF]

(kicks rocks)

...but it's my day off!

 

[Trigger Time]

Atheist fighting to prevent members of religions from shoving their beliefs down peoples throats by shoving their demand for no religion down peoples throats. Yep makes sense to me (purple implied)

I've never seen a bunch of bigger cry babies and losers than the ones who try to tear down religious statues and stop prayer and remove the word god from our government institutions.

Frankly having God or the belief in a higher power and accountability in our society makes it better and the absence of god or faith tears society down and gives us the current state our country is in.

Ive held these same views all through my life. At times of deep faith, times of no faith, and now at the time in my life where i have faith but I dont practice any religion and never share or force my beliefs on others.
But keep pushing our buttons and poking the bear on this issue, the fake race issue, the 2nd amendment issue, and the bear is going to bite you. Its all coming to a head and the side thats been ho hum and taken the constant kicks to the ribs and turned the other cheek is about to fight back.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

Atheist fighting to prevent members of religions from shoving their beliefs down peoples throats by shoving their demand for no religion down peoples throats. Yep makes sense to me (purple implied)

I've never seen a bunch of bigger cry babies and losers than the ones who try to tear down religious statues and stop prayer and remove the word god from our government institutions.

Frankly having God or the belief in a higher power and accountability in our society makes it better and the absence of god or faith tears society down and gives us the current state our country is in.

Ive held these same views all through my life. At times of deep faith, times of no faith, and now at the time in my life where i have faith but I dont practice any religion and never share or force my beliefs on others.
But keep pushing our buttons and poking the bear on this issue, the fake race issue, the 2nd amendment issue, and the bear is going to bite you. Its all coming to a head and the side thats been ho hum and taken the constant kicks to the ribs and turned the other cheek is about to fight back.

Why would you think that only Atheists would want a secular government? There are many people of deep faith who have the good sense to recognize that religion belongs in the heart and in the home, but not in the government.

Edit: I'd have more support for any local government who wants to have a big stone marker with the Ten Commandments on their front lawn if they also adopt a regulation wherein any of them is immediately dismissed if they are found to have broken one. Regardless of my stance on religion, I'd be impressed with people who aren't afraid to put their money where their mouth is.

 

[ATOMonkey]

Why would you think that only Atheists would want a secular government? There are many people of deep faith who have the good sense to recognize that religion belongs in the heart and in the home, but not in the government.

Yes, with exception (as always). I don't want state sponsored religion, because it corrupts both the state and the religion. However, religion belongs in all aspects of life, and can't simply be confined to certain buildings on certain days. Being Christian, Islamic, Buddhist, etc. is not just a hobby, it is a way of life. I can't stop being Christian in public anymore than I can stop being male or white. It's who I am.

Christianity does not attempt to force itself on others (at least that's the idea). The teaching of Christianity is that salvation is a gift, and as such can only be accepted. It can not be forced onto anyone. In the instances where people have tried to force conversion, it has met with disastrous consequences.

Other ideologies such as Islam and Communism give you the option to conform or die. That's a fairly distinct difference, in my opinion. It is difficult to be Muslim, and to not strive for Sharia as a form of government, because the two are inexorably connected. Just like it's difficult to be communist and not strive for communist government.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

Yes, with exception (as always). I don't want state sponsored religion, because it corrupts both the state and the religion. However, religion belongs in all aspects of life, and can't simply be confined to certain buildings on certain days. Being Christian, Islamic, Buddhist, etc. is not just a hobby, it is a way of life. I can't stop being Christian in public anymore than I can stop being male or white. It's who I am.

Christianity does not attempt to force itself on others (at least that's the idea). The teaching of Christianity is that salvation is a gift, and as such can only be accepted. It can not be forced onto anyone. In the instances where people have tried to force conversion, it has met with disastrous consequences.

Other ideologies such as Islam and Communism give you the option to conform or die. That's a fairly distinct difference, in my opinion. It is difficult to be Muslim, and to not strive for Sharia as a form of government, because the two are inexorably connected. Just like it's difficult to be communist and not strive for communist government.

I agree, and I just suspect that a government must be secular to prevent that inevitability. I also admit that I'm not sure if that's possible.

 

[ATOMonkey]

I agree, and I just suspect that a government must be secular to prevent that inevitability. I also admit that I'm not sure if that's possible.

Agreed. So long as government is made up of people, and people remain religious, you'll have religious people in government. I could even count some forms of secularlism as being overtly religious in nature. The First Church of Social Justice or Climate Change, is as fervent as any group of Crusaders, because ideology is powerful and comes in many flavors and colors.