"Penetration tests" Bah!!!!

[TheDude]

Am I the only one who doesnt give a hoot about "penetration tests"? Of course this load or that load will go thru sheetrock etc, so will most any load 22lr,9mm, all centerfire rifle rounds.
I can understand people living in apartments and the suburbs being concerned about this but bullets can & will do strange things no matter the situation.
Lets hear about track records of specific loads and their effectiveness on the street.
Anyone got the "One shot stop" data they put out years ago or is this not PC anymore?





That is all.

 

[upchurch67]

My understanding of "penetration tests" is how the round performed in ballistic gelatin. Of course the ballistic gelatin is supposed to provide a medium that is a close representation to human flesh. It is not necessarily a way to predict the effect a particular round will have on a particular human target in a particular circumstance. But it is a way to compare the performance of one bullet to another since the only variable in the test is the bullet.

Actual "street" data is interesting and is of some value. But quite often the methods used to "crunch" the data lead to debate on the results. I think the "one shot stop" data to which you are referring is the Marshall and Sanow study. There is some debate as to the validity of their results due to the samples they chose to exclude from their study.

The other obvious problem with only using "street" data is that how do you judge the effectiveness of a newly introduced cartridge. The only way is to compare that cartridge against a known effective round in a standard medium.

So, I can't say you are the only person not interested in "penetration tests", but I am.

 

[TheDude]

My understanding of "penetration tests" is how the round performed in ballistic gelatin. Of course the ballistic gelatin is supposed to provide a medium that is a close representation to human flesh. It is not necessarily a way to predict the effect a particular round will have on a particular human target in a particular circumstance. But it is a way to compare the performance of one bullet to another since the only variable in the test is the bullet.

Actual "street" data is interesting and is of some value. But quite often the methods used to "crunch" the data lead to debate on the results. I think the "one shot stop" data to which you are referring is the Marshall and Sanow study. There is some debate as to the validity of their results due to the samples they chose to exclude from their study.

The other obvious problem with only using "street" data is that how do you judge the effectiveness of a newly introduced cartridge. The only way is to compare that cartridge against a known effective round in a standard medium.

So, I can't say you are the only person not interested in "penetration tests", but I am.

Well...I shouldnt have said ALL penetration tests because ballistic gelatin is the only one that makes sense. But shooting through refrigerators and 6 pieces of plywood and sheetrock seems like a waste of ammo as its been done to death.

 

[yotewacker]

I do know several police agencies use plastic bullets in AR's. It's suppose to break up after hitting one sheet of drywall and not penetrate the second layer. They will shatter on impact of brick or block.

 

[Fordtough25]

FMJ rounds have been getting it done for years!

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

Hogs work well for "penetration tests"....

 

[indykid]

Well...I shouldnt have said ALL penetration tests because ballistic gelatin is the only one that makes sense. But shooting through refrigerators and 6 pieces of plywood and sheetrock seems like a waste of ammo as its been done to death.

Actually it is a great test as most people see good guys and bad guys on TV shooting at each other and using a standard wall as a barrier. I guarantee you that if I am shooting at you and you hide behind a standard sheetrock wall I will aim at where you are behind the wall, and you will not be happy with the results.

The other reason again is because people don't seem to understand that if they shoot at a bad guy inside their home and miss, that bullet is going to continue through several walls before stopping, and if you don't understand that, your loved ones are in severe danger.

The reports of ammo versus any household object is very beneficial when your life is at stake and you need to hid behind something for protection.

It is just a reminder for those that have seen it before, and a lesson for those who haven't.

 

[TheDude]

Actually it is a great test as most people see good guys and bad guys on TV shooting at each other and using a standard wall as a barrier. I guarantee you that if I am shooting at you and you hide behind a standard sheetrock wall I will aim at where you are behind the wall, and you will not be happy with the results.

The other reason again is because people don't seem to understand that if they shoot at a bad guy inside their home and miss, that bullet is going to continue through several walls before stopping, and if you don't understand that, your loved ones are in severe danger.

The reports of ammo versus any household object is very beneficial when your life is at stake and you need to hid behind something for protection.

It is just a reminder for those that have seen it before, and a lesson for those who haven't.

So they do it for a matter of cover and concealment which most modern homes lack, cover that is?

 

[IndyGunworks]

The other reason again is because people don't seem to understand that if they shoot at a bad guy inside their home and miss, that bullet is going to continue through several walls before stopping.

People? can you be more specific

and how do you know "they" dont understand this? perhapds YOU think that because it works on tv that some/most gunowners believe it to be true?

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

I do know several police agencies use plastic bullets in AR's. It's suppose to break up after hitting one sheet of drywall and not penetrate the second layer. They will shatter on impact of brick or block.

Not even Federal Air Marshals use plastic / frangible rounds...

Please, tell us the departments where this is SOP...

-J-

 

[esrice]

Penetration tests, like all good tests, first require a purpose. The best tests IMO are the ones that seek to answer a question.

Someone here on INGO once asked "Will bullets penetrate my brick-clad house?" No one had any real "street" examples, so we decided to test it for ourselves.

What we learned might surprise you-- it certainly surprised us!

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...ing_of_residential_brick_walls_pic_heavy.html

 

[indykid]

People? can you be more specific

and how do you know "they" dont understand this? perhapds YOU think that because it works on tv that some/most gunowners believe it to be true?

So you never heard anyone say "but I saw it on TV" or the other good one "I heard it on the internet"?

Most firearm owners know better, but most sheep, or even someone who is new to this might not know it. We were all new to shooting at one time or another, right?

 

[Yeah]

Most firearm owners probably don't know better. I don't know the state of the art when it comes to handgun bullets, but I live alone and I couldn't get one to the next neighbor even on purpose.

I do know how a whole bunch of rifle bullets perform on animals and can attest that the majority of what I read about them on the web is some mixture of voodoo, wives tales, brand loyalty, and outright ridiculosity. People think bullet diameter is some kind of determinant. Or grain weight. Worse yet they think the cartridge matters more than the bullet. They get misty eyed about what some gun rag published 40 years ago. There is far more bad information than good and in that regard and handgunnners are well advanced for having even marginally applicable published data.

 

[1911Shooter]

I stick with what has worked for years. I live in an area where I wouldnt be a danger to my neighbors, so I go with 45 ACP. I know how my rounds shoot and I dont worry about stopping power. 45 ACP worked for our guys in many wars and thats good enough for me. In all honesty though, I feel if you put any round in center mass, the bad guy isnt going to like it.

 

[sgreen3]

I know Turkish 8mm will go through 3/4" steel plate at 75yrds

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

I know Turkish 8mm will go through 3/4" steel plate at 75yrds

That all depends on the hardness of the steel plate...

-J-

 

[Double T]

In all honesty, I want to know what a round can pass through moreso than what it won't.


If you want to see what it does to humans: ballistic gel lined with pork spare ribs would simulate a ribcage.

I am far more interested in how many "simulated" walls a projectile can pass through (not just drywall...but a for real fake wall....studs, insulation, etc...)

 

[sgreen3]

That all depends on the hardness of the steel plate...

-J-

True, but its still pretty cool either way

 

[U.S. Patriot]

Just carry a .45 because it's a one shot man stopper.

 

[pftraining_in]

Anything handheld or shoulder fired is far from a guaranteed one shot stop. The one shot stop nonsense got rolling with the book series Street Stoppers. Ballistic Gel test are typically one sided and not a true representation of how a bullet really performs as there is no bone or density differences. Ammunition makers tend to create ammo that does well in these test as their bullets look pretty for photos afterwards and ballistic gel looks good in photos.

Additionally living tissues acts different when the situation is a hunting incident vs a defensive situation. A round may work when hunting but not work in a defensive situation due to the bodies natural reactions. In a hunting situation the body has the adrenaline dump after the damage is done, in a defensive situation the adrenaline dump is live and well working to constrict blood vessels and telling the brain it is time to fight and not die.

The truth is you want your ammo to dump his power with in the target and not exit or exit with little power left as to not endanger bystanders. However you have to also be able to penetrate deep enough to pass through organs and not stop in them.

Test done on dead tissue or meat are also useless as the body does not react that way. Shot placement is the only thing that makes a bullet work. Air in and fluid out and the brain realizing it is dead is what ends the fight.