Physical fitness of firearms instructors

[Sticky]

I'll take a fat instructor any day. I wanna' learn tactics that do not require me to run a lot.

Skinny is good, too. As long as it works.

P.S.: If it has to be James Y., I prefer the fat version.

 

[bingley]

It seems that people make fitness into a moral issue. Some people say they won't study with a physically unfit instructor if he's fat as a result of his "lifestyle choice." How do you know that someone's obesity is not the result of illness or the side effect of medication? It's not our place to pass moral judgment on a health situation that we don't know anything about. All we can decide is whether the guy can or cannot teach the materials that he intends to teach. A good instructor will teach within his limitations, and won't self-rationalize by saying delusional stuff like "I can just crush my opponent with my 400 pounds."

Now, if we care about moral issues, here's something more important that obesity. You want to look for good moral character in someone who is going to teach you how to take a life. Even if you think you have a strong moral core, this sort of training will change you and influence you in subtle and possibly profound ways. You want someone who is sterling and upright in his speech, conduct, and person. There are instructors who do not fit this criterion, and they corrupt their students. In fact, there is someone whose behavior on INGO makes me think that he shouldn't teach at all, and yet he teaches. I hope I'm wrong about him, but I don't think so.

One final point. I don't contest the benefits of being fit and in good physical health, but I would say that for civilians, you don't know what self-defense is unless you are so sick, old, or otherwise weak that you can barely walk, you can barely defend yourself, and young, fit bad guys are looking at you like wolves looking at a delicious side of beef. That's what you need training for. You generally don't need your skills and your weapons when you're so strong and alert that every pore on you just exudes "super Delta Force operator!" The (better) criminals can pick that up and they'll move on to an easier target. From that perspective, perhaps we can learn something unique from instructors who are physically unfit, chronically ill, or virtually disabled due to old age. And from that perspective, physically unfit students may need to learn defensive shooting more than Rambo.

OK, I can jump off the soap box.

 

[Jackson]

Now, if we care about moral issues, here's something more important that obesity. You want to look for good moral character in someone who is going to teach you how to take a life. Even if you think you have a strong moral core, this sort of training will change you and influence you in subtle and possibly profound ways. You want someone who is sterling and upright in his speech, conduct, and person. There are instructors who do not fit this criterion, and they corrupt their students. In fact, there is someone whose behavior on INGO makes me think that he shouldn't teach at all, and yet he teaches. I hope I'm wrong about him, but I don't think so.

.

This may be a topic which warrants its own thread. I disagree, though. I've learned important things from people who I'm sure do not share my morals and values. I don't believe it has affected my own moral outlook. I think learning from someone with less scrupulous character might be a good thing in terms of broadening my perspective on available options to deal with the situation.

 

[bingley]

This may be a topic which warrants its own thread. I disagree, though. I've learned important things from people who I'm sure do not share my morals and values. I don't believe it has affected my own moral outlook. I think learning from someone with less scrupulous character might be a good thing in terms of broadening my perspective on available options to deal with the situation.

I'm not sure we're talking about the same things. Let me try to clarify. Someone with values different from yours can still be in good moral character. After all, how do you know you have the best answers? Integrity counts for a lot. I'm also not talking about being "less scrupulous" in defensive options. Fighting techniques have no morality. There is no such thing as "fighting dirty." I'm talking about who that person is at the core.

Moral influence often happens at a subtle level. If someone just tells you to go and kill everyone, you'd just laugh at that lunatic. But if instead of saying something explicit like that, that person gives off a vibe of disrespect for human life -- because that's what he is. If you spend long enough around him, you pick up a little of that. How much worse, then, to put yourself in a vulnerable position as a student in the long term?

I'm sure there are some cartel hitmen who have a lot to teach us about using firearms. Do you want them as your teachers? You may say this is an extreme example. I've seen personally how this stuff can rub off -- *through years of contact*. So I'd say most people probably don't have to worry a lot if they do these three-day firearm classes. But then again, I've seen enough instructors who impress me with their rectitude. They teach this stuff because they truly appreciate the value of life from a life time of policing and soldiering. I'm inspired by their dedication to teaching techniques of self-protection. So why learn from someone less than that?

 

[riverman67]

I'm the poster child for fat firearms teachers. I know some people won't learn from me because of that and I know some people won't learn from me because I wasn't in the military. I also know some won't learn from me because they shoot better in competitions than I do. Some just don't like me or the way I teach. At this point in life, it doesn't bother me so much why someone doesn't seek my instruction. I will continue to help those who want my help and there are plenty of other instructors who can meet the needs of the others.

As a student (which is pertinent to this topic) I have learned a metric butt-tonne load from teachers who were fat, old, and sometimes even less mobile than I am and I've learned a lot from teachers who are exemplars of fitness. I've learned from people whose skill level dwarfs mine, and I've learned from people who have a long way to go before they can do what I do (but they will get there). My primary interests in choosing instructors are 1) do they know something that I want or need to know or learn, and 2) can they teach me effectively. The latter is where some issues we're discussing can arise for me and for others. I don't have a bias in terms of physical fitness, perhaps because of my personal perspective. I do admit to a bias about personality and how an instructor chooses to interact with the students. Is that more or less legitimate than those who have a bias against fat guys? Probably it's about the same, and I'll own it. I place a high value on how someone treats me and others who share my role as a student.

Believe it or not, a similar issue sometimes arises about fat students. A few years ago on another forum, someone started a topic about fat guys in classes wherein the original poster and significant number of others wrote a lot of text about how fat people don't belong in classes. One reason what they "slowed down" the class, and there may be some merit to that in some cases and not so much in others. The most common idea though, was that fat people were so much more likely to die from some obesity-related disease or condition that they shouldn't bother learning to defend themselves. I had a hard time wrapping my head around that because people who are less mobile with less endurance and little ability to flee the scene would seem to be among the people who need training the most. I could be wrong. Curiously this trend either faded or became less public when Larry Vickers was a little chubby on his tv show.

Mr. Vickers is significantly slimmer now than he was a couple of years ago. I assert, however, that I could learn as much from chubby Larry Vickers as I could from fitter Larry Vickers. Sure, you could maintain that his weight never impaired him significantly in his role as a teacher and I'd agree. On the other hand, sometimes with some people it's more about appearance and their personal aesthetic paradigms than it is about knowledge and teaching ability. To me that's far more troubling than genuinely finding fault for lack of ability to perform to a standard because of weight.

Addendum: Coach may claim to be fat, but his physical ability contradicts him.

He moves pretty good for a big man.
I'm old fat and slow and I'll admit that I haven't thought about this topic at all. The responses are interesting. I am going to continue picking trainers by what I can fit into my schedule and my budget. If I go to a class and I learn nothing you guys will be the first to know.

 

[rhino]

I prefer my trainers to be fluffy AND Filipino. So there.

-J-

I can make that happen, sir! I even had the proper haircut a couple of weeks ago. Need to get it redone.

with Harry Potter scars!

It's faded to the point that I have to tell people about it now ... when they're looking at me!

Of course, I do add that I received it saving my company in the Ia Drang Valley when they choppered me over the battlefield hanging from a Chinook by a size 8XL stabo harness with an M60 in each hand. We strafed until we ran out of fuel. When we got back to base, I said "Good Morning" to Sergeant Major Plumlee and he punched me in right in the head for being a g-d weatherman.

Or not.

I'll take a fat instructor any day. I wanna' learn tactics that do not require me to run a lot.

Skinny is good, too. As long as it works.

P.S.: If it has to be James Y., I prefer the fat version.

I'll have to work on "special" tactics for those of us with a Successful Lifestyle Physique and others with mobility issues.

 

[N8RV]

You had me at Ia Drang.

 

[MangoTango]

Would you have an issue learning gymnastics from Béla Károlyi. I agree with the statement that it matters what they are teaching.

 

[Dragon]

I think that it all depends on the type of training that you're doing. If I were taking a class on how to run and gun from someone I could outrun, then there might be an issue. If we're talking about shooting technique, mindest, and tactics of defensive pistol then I'm okay with someone being less fit.

Physical fitness allows so much more than people ever give credit for in a stressful situation. If my resting heart rate is 42 and yours is 90, goodluck controlling your breathing under stress when you're hitting 150's and I'm hitting 100. You can NEVER be too fit but you CAN be less fit than necessary. Physiology makes a difference in anything physical, why not have the advantage in ANY fight?

 

[usafmora]

I want someone fit to teach me. If I wanted some lard ass I would put a mirrow in the front room and put on my Captain Nemo spedos on and watch my self.

 

[esrice]

I appreciate everyone's input on this topic. It's given me much to think about. Some good points were raised about what type of training is being sought. I also liked the coaching analogy.

I also appreciate that no one took the opportunity to put anyone else down.

 

[irishfan]

I appreciate everyone's input on this topic. It's given me much to think about. Some good points were raised about what type of training is being sought. I also liked the coaching analogy.

I also appreciate that no one took the opportunity to put anyone else down.

Jerk....this is INGO I can't let you think that you can get out of a thread without at least one insult for someone.

Physical fitness for an instructor can be so many factors. For me and from what I have read a lot of others in this thread also agree that it is hard to take instruction from someone who gives a drill order yet can't do the drill for you to see. There are obvious exceptions to the rule with age of instructors and injuries incurred in an instructors life that is not their own poor life choices.

Now, I will say one thing to what Coach said about people not taking training from him that I know he is spot on about. There are a lot of "snobs" in the gun community who think they don't need instruction because they are 3 gun champs or IDPA shooters who can out shoot some of the instructors who offer classes. With that being said there are a lot of the 300lb guys who don't need to train because their oober bad zombie killing rifle is accurate with 1moa at 400yds. I know from my own personal experience that once you go from shooting in a solid stance with both hands and no pressure to off hand from one knee with a whole firing line rattling off then things change fast. Finally, I have found that I love taking classes and want to get more training from whoever I can get it and not just shooting either. I want to go back to TR to take their medical class and have taken Redneck Medic's trauma class as well. It's not just about shooting for me as I want to learn all I can now while I don't need it so that if a nightmare scenario occurs then I will be able to protect myself and my family.

 

[HICKMAN]

Update from the guy who started this:

Instructors & Fitness

 

[Coach]

How well they can shoot does not matter? I am not going to an instructor that cannot shoot unless it is one who has been physically disabled in an accident or something or is now older than dirt.

 

[cedartop]

Update from the guy who started this:

Instructors & Fitness

The guy who started all this?

 

[HICKMAN]

The guy who started all this?

yeah, the one who wrote this:

Overweight Instructors

 

[Rob377]

How well they can shoot does not matter? I am not going to an instructor that cannot shoot unless it is one who has been physically disabled in an accident or something or is now older than dirt.

+1

If it's a class that has anything to do with shooting, I cannot fathom why anyone would pay good money to an "instructor" that can't actually shoot.

"But Rob, TEACHING ability!!"

If they couldn't teach themselves how to shoot well with all that awesome teaching ability, you can't expect that they would be able to teach anyone else.


Maybe I should start charging $200-300 a head to run people through some simple drills I found on the internet. PM me for class details. Fat people (like myself) welcome!

 

[theblackknight]

I'm a firearms instructor for my department, I'm a combatives instructor as well, and a CrossFit instructor. My personal opinion is I strive to be better than those I teach. It doesn't always happen but I strive for it. The better shape you are in the easier it will be to deal the stress of "combat". The firearm is just a tool. The operator is the actual weapon. Mind and body are inseparable. As an instructor I try to lead by example. I cannot very well teach something I am not. But that is just my opinion.

This guy won. Physical ability matters in a fight. People shouldnt be ok with being fat for what ever reason. Men get the pot belly later in life, it happens. If someone of Larry Vickers or Dave Harrington's background is fat, well they have good ****ing reason. If you are a instructor teaching martial skills and are still "on the clock", you better be in some shape. If fat, your mindset is ****ed somewhere along the way.

If you are just teaching shooting or USPSA, I could care less.

 

[glockednlocked]

All these good points have been made. I will say as a guy who is nowhere near as fit as I feel I should be, I know endurance is my weak area and strive to end any confrontation quickly and decisively. A trainer who teaches that way suits me. If I was super fit endurance junky classes that involved long physically taxing training(possibly not teachable by anyone not really fit) might be really fun, but at the end of the day I think I would always subscribe to the theory of quick decisive victory over long cardio battle. I do think you must look at YOUR goals and what suits you. I think picking a trainer who meets those goals and pushes you in form and functions makes more sense than worrying about look or cool factor.

 

[esrice]

Update from the guy who started this:

Instructors & Fitness

Just for some clarification, that article wasn't the reason I started this thread. I hadn't even heard about it until now. What got me thinking about this was a post in another subforum where someone mentioned Larry Vickers looking a little hefty for a Delta guy (or something to that effect).

But I do appreciate you sharing the pertinent links.