plastic 870 trigger guard.. Whats the big deal? Your pistols are plastic framed?

[DoggyDaddy]

I replaced a plastic trigger guard on a Mossberg 44US(a) because it would not fit after it was removed. The trigger guard had shrunk over the years but the screws held it in the in-letting. I could not flex it enough for it to fit again. Fortunately Havilin Sales has a lot of old and reproduction Mossberg parts.

Yep, I've seen that happen, and also seen them bow slightly even when attached to the rifle. Guessing that it's partly due to the state of plastics technology 70 years ago vs. today.

 

[Chance]

Some very valid points gents...

I also agree the plastic trigger guard was a much cheaper manufacturing solution. Machine a few molds to make a few thousand parts vs. machine each individual part? Definitely a no brainer there when it comes to cost effectiveness.

Another factor that I believe plays a huge role in the above example. Along with the differnces of quality in the different grades have changed over the years is the lack of skilled trades men.

I read a very interesting article when it came to manufacturing last year. Companies can’t find Tool Makers and machinist anymore to manufacture products of that “quality” like they did in the 50s and 60s... they seak cheaper, faster ways to manufacture products because they literally don’t have the hands to do it. Most of the skilled work force now are getting ready to retire in the next 5-10 years. Here’s one very interesting article similar to what I said above. Picking this trade may literally pay off one day...

Tool and Die Makers, OEMS Gather for Crisis Meeting | Workforce Shortage | IndustryWeek

Absolutely agree. My company does our own product designs and tooling. Our tool and die makers are like gold! Good ones are very hard to find and hard to keep. It is a dying art in the USA unfortunately.

 

[SPOOK331945]

Being in the field using my gear. I have two Marlin rifles sitting here with busted trigger guards. They have lived a easy life.

I beat the **** out of my Glock. Rinse all the mud off of it with a garden hose and it looks like new! Hit it with compressed air and it goes back in the holster for another day.

Those plastic guards are cheap crap. Just replaced one on my Savage with an after market metal one.

As far as shot guns go ditched the 870 for a Benelli Nova. It's a lot of plastic but its like the Glock of shotguns. It takes a beating and keeps on popping. I don't have to worry about it. It's a higher grade for sure.

Now if they made those cheap ones out of Glock type material it would outlast the gun

Thats still not answering my question. What is your source that you know they are 2 different forms of plastics? Being in the field and using them does not indicate that two different materials were used...

Did your marlins or glocks use ABS, Polypropylene, POM, Polycarbonate ABS, a glass fiber based plastic, etc? Did one plastic have a higher impact resistance than the other? Did one have a higher chemical resistance than the other one? Were one would start to deteriorate and become weaken more than the other as cleaning solvent or oil are applied? was one plastic more heat resistant? Was one more brittle at colder temperatures?

Not saying that they are using the same plastics but could it actually also be an engineering design.. Did they chamfer and radius all corners in the A and B side of molds so that it would leave and sharp corners for fracture points in the plastic after it was molded? Did the runners in the mold have blockage that caused possible hidden air pockets within the plastic? And so on..

Chamfers and radius' indicate a well thought out part. Takes a lot of extra time to do these small features but extra time spent on these minor details can LITERALLY make the same part a piece of junk or a quality piece.

There are so many variables that could have cause that failure whether it was the same plastic or a lower grade material. Just stating they are cheap crap doesn't prove that they are even different materials, that's personal preference. Nothing wrong with personal preference believe me I most definitely have mine haha, just not a good reason to say one is better than the other. Most likely glock, marlin, remington and who ever else are probably using much different plastic than when they started producing that product in the beginning. A new better material comes out every couple of months now these days.

 

[SPOOK331945]

Absolutely agree. My company does our own product designs and tooling. Our tool and die makers are like gold! Good ones are very hard to find and hard to keep. It is a dying art in the USA unfortunately.

Not just in the USA but the whole world really. Other countries have skilled workers but not to the same caliber that the US did. My company will out source a lot of tooling from different parts of Asia and 99% of the time we have to "fix" the brand new tooling to make it work with the tolerances we need it to work in.

Yes they can make the parts over seas but most of those shops are still dirt floors with sloppy machines that simply cant hold the .0001" flatness, perpendicularity and parallelism that we need it to be here in the states. Due to those conditions they simply aren't taught the hand skills to be able to make that quality of product. Not to mention they cut corners on the actual steel composition itself, heat treatment and tempering.

 

[walleyepw]

If the plastic trigger guards were made of an engineering grade of polymer instead of inexpensive commercial grade of polymer, then many of the complaints would not exist. I have seen the broken plastic trigger guards and they look as if they are a high percent talc filled pc/abs or hips.

 

[Hookeye]

I would have guessed a glass filled polyester or something better.

 

[Hookeye]

Even if the design is right............many places don't fully understand their own processes.
They just run it "good enough" and sort through the crap or wait for a customer complaint.
When at GM, we had so many issues with suppliers, had an engineering team that would go out and help them get their act together.
I worked in advanced development (packaging, processing and materials). Seen a lot of screwups.
And that with US suppliers.
Don't get me started about across the pond stuff.

 

[Hookeye]

BTW I had a newer Rem 700 ADL. It shot .75" @ 100 yds w factory ammo.
Groups opened to 1.5".
Took it apart and found the plastic trigger guard had cracked.
Got a steel one.
Torqued to spec and back to .75".
Easy fix, cost $35.............but shouldn't have happened.
Think my prev ADL synth had an alloy guard.
I said screw it and went steel.

 

[SPOOK331945]

Even if the design is right............many places don't fully understand their own processes.
They just run it "good enough"

You hit the nail on the head.. heard that a couple times where I work.

 

[gglass]

This tired argument has been played out since polymers first started appearing on firearms. I remember seeing tests done by Mossberg and Ruger showing how polymer actually made the trigger guard more impervious to damage, but that may never change the minds of those who just know better.

Ruger Trigger Guard Test

I cannot find the video at the moment, but in the same test by Mossberg, the metal trigger guard collapses down to the trigger and is rendered unusable, but the polymer trigger guard simply rebounds from the impact and looks as good as new.

With the right polymer formulation, and the right mechanical design, there is no reason that polymer cannot be a superior material to steel or aluminum for some parts of a firearm.

 

[Sniper 79]

Thats still not answering my question. What is your source that you know they are 2 different forms of plastics? Being in the field and using them does not indicate that two different materials were used...

Did your marlins or glocks use ABS, Polypropylene, POM, Polycarbonate ABS, a glass fiber based plastic, etc? Did one plastic have a higher impact resistance than the other? Did one have a higher chemical resistance than the other one? Were one would start to deteriorate and become weaken more than the other as cleaning solvent or oil are applied? was one plastic more heat resistant? Was one more brittle at colder temperatures?

Not saying that they are using the same plastics but could it actually also be an engineering design.. Did they chamfer and radius all corners in the A and B side of molds so that it would leave and sharp corners for fracture points in the plastic after it was molded? Did the runners in the mold have blockage that caused possible hidden air pockets within the plastic? And so on..

Chamfers and radius' indicate a well thought out part. Takes a lot of extra time to do these small features but extra time spent on these minor details can LITERALLY make the same part a piece of junk or a quality piece.

There are so many variables that could have cause that failure whether it was the same plastic or a lower grade material. Just stating they are cheap crap doesn't prove that they are even different materials, that's personal preference. Nothing wrong with personal preference believe me I most definitely have mine haha, just not a good reason to say one is better than the other. Most likely glock, marlin, remington and who ever else are probably using much different plastic than when they started producing that product in the beginning. A new better material comes out every couple of months now these days.

Doesn't take a scientific explanation to figure out the difference between cheap crap and quality. Plastic or not. One glance is all it takes.

I would put my life on the fact they are different materials.

Price should generally reflect that as well. We are talking Remington, Savage, Marlin here. All cheap guns that need parts swaped in order to bring them up to snuff.

 

[SPOOK331945]

Doesn't take a scientific explanation to figure out the difference between cheap crap and quality. Plastic or not. One glance is all it takes.

I would put my life on the fact they are different materials.

Price should generally reflect that as well. We are talking Remington, Savage, Marlin here. All cheap guns that need parts swaped in order to bring them up to snuff.

Never said that they were the same materials, it could be possible they were. Just value a more thought out answer than it’s “just cheap crap”. Either way you obviously have your own opinions with certain companies which there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Same reason I believe glocks are over priced. Good firearm and I own several but square slide plastic frame $550< is excessive for what it is. Myself? I look at what actually might be causing the issue and I’ll look in every direction to try and identify it, just the nature of a Tool Maker and I enjoy doing it. That gives me insight on how to make my own and what not to do if I choose to do so.

 

[Ggreen]

I believe you can buy a metal factory replacement with a gold plated (colored) trigger, if styling is your thing. Sorry if this was mentioned earlier it seemed like it turned into a manufacturing professional peni... er...experience showing game and I got bored, needed more pictures. With the rough finish that the 870 express' get the plastic guard is fine. I'd take plastic over mim, but if the shotgun were a deeply blued wingmaster i'd be pretty peeved. Same model, but two completely different beasts when it comes to looks.

 

[SPOOK331945]

I believe you can buy a metal factory replacement with a gold plated (colored) trigger, if styling is your thing. Sorry if this was mentioned earlier it seemed like it turned into a manufacturing professional peni... er...experience showing game and I got bored, needed more pictures. With the rough finish that the 870 express' get the plastic guard is fine. I'd take plastic over mim, but if the shotgun were a deeply blued wingmaster i'd be pretty peeved. Same model, but two completely different beasts when it comes to looks.

usually ventures off in that direction with most threads...

if I remember right those trigger guards your talking about brought a pretty penny? Honestly been awhile since I’ve looked. Like you say with express or any other cheaper version ehh big deal. My wing master? It better for the price I’m paying lmao