Police FAIL in California

[CTS]

So I'm actually quite the fan of our local LEO's and not on the police hatewagon generally speaking, but this is just messed up.

Lakeside Suspect Shot Deputies Then Himself: Girlfriend | NBC 7 San Diego

So if you read the story, the police planned a raid on a local man for possession of child pornography. The thing is he lived in an apartment building and they didn't evacuate the adjacent apartments before going in, this is the next door neighbors wall:

He and two of his room mates were inside at the time. None of them were injured, but given that this was a planned raid and the suspects girlfriend told the police the guy had weapons, would you not clear at least the neighbors before going into what could easily turn into a shoot out? Someone else could have easily been on the other side of that wall, heck it could have been a nursery for all they knew, I can only imagine the poo storm if a kid had been killed. I lived right down the road from those apartments during a temporary job a few years ago, scary stuff.

Rule 4: Know your target and what is beyond.

 

[Bunnykid68]

They make up their own rules out there

 

[Cannon762]

"The officer's guns then leaped from their holsters, firing wildly on their own accord with wanton disregard for the residents in neighboring apartments. The guns could not be reached for comments." -California

 

[LarryC]

I am normally a pretty good fan of LEO's, however I think 99% of these "raids" ought to be stopped and "SWAT TEAM's" eliminated. If you look at the raid information, you usually find (at least in this area), the "perp" has a fairly normal routine often working a regular job. Why can't they wait until the man is going to work - as he gets out of his car etc. and arrest him, it would be a lot safer for the police and everyone else - then with a proper search warrant - search his apartment? Seems like a lot of the departments just like to play soldier.

 

[easy]

^^^^^^^^
BINGO!

 

[Mackey]

So I'm actually quite the fan of our local LEO's and not on the police hatewagon generally speaking, but this is just messed up.

Lakeside Suspect Shot Deputies Then Himself: Girlfriend | NBC 7 San Diego

So if you read the story, the police planned a raid on a local man for possession of child pornography. The thing is he lived in an apartment building and they didn't evacuate the adjacent apartments before going in, this is the next door neighbors wall:

He and two of his room mates were inside at the time.....

I am outraged ....
at these peoples' interior decorator.
What in the heck where they thinking: Pokemon and Marvel Comics? Insane. The cops were doing them a favor.

Pikachu is like "don't shoot."

 

[Classic]

I am normally a pretty good fan of LEO's, however I think 99% of these "raids" ought to be stopped and "SWAT TEAM's" eliminated. If you look at the raid information, you usually find (at least in this area), the "perp" has a fairly normal routine often working a regular job. Why can't they wait until the man is going to work - as he gets out of his car etc. and arrest him, it would be a lot safer for the police and everyone else - then with a proper search warrant - search his apartment? Seems like a lot of the departments just like to play soldier.

This is so right. The continued and escalating militarization of LEOs creates fear as opposed to respect. People will cooperate with LEOs they respect, not those they fear. Waaaay too much taxpayer money available to spend.

 

[churchmouse]

I am normally a pretty good fan of LEO's, however I think 99% of these "raids" ought to be stopped and "SWAT TEAM's" eliminated. If you look at the raid information, you usually find (at least in this area), the "perp" has a fairly normal routine often working a regular job. Why can't they wait until the man is going to work - as he gets out of his car etc. and arrest him, it would be a lot safer for the police and everyone else - then with a proper search warrant - search his apartment? Seems like a lot of the departments just like to play soldier.

Mall Ninja tactics.

I to am a fan of decent LEO and the job they do. As many LEO have stated it is a lack of training and leadership that leads to these EPIC failures. It is one thing for me to make a mistake at work. No one will die. LEO and the departments they work for can not afford these mistakes.

 

[Excalibur]

Well the problem is that police aren't the military, they aren't even paramilitary at times. They need to either stick to being civilians with good training or go full military with the best training possible. There's always bad uniformity since no two cops wears the exact same equipment and cross training is a nightmare when you compare even qualification scores.

 

[Colt556]

I hope Sheldon and Leonard weren't hurt.

 

[downzero]

I hope Sheldon and Leonard weren't hurt.

I'm more worried about Penny, as she lives across the hall.

 

[Colt556]

I'm more worried about Penny, as she lives across the hall.

She's the main reason I watch!

 

[Cannon762]

::edit:: Removed comment about Kaley Cuoco. This is, after all, a family forum.

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

Well the problem is that police aren't the military, they aren't even paramilitary at times. They need to either stick to being civilians with good training or go full military with the best training possible. There's always bad uniformity since no two cops wears the exact same equipment and cross training is a nightmare when you compare even qualification scores.

The problem is, while many departments would like to go "full military" - it would likely increase the amount of incidents like this one.

A peace officer is a peace officer, and a soldier is a soldier. Confusing the two tends to cause problems in a civilized society.

 

[rockhopper46038]

The problem is, while many departments would like to go "full military" - it would likely increase the amount of incidents like this one.

A peace officer is a peace officer, and a soldier is a soldier. Confusing the two tends to cause problems in a civilized society.

I THINK he meant that the individual officer (or the guy pushing for the SWAT raids) needs to decide that they either wish to be a civilian peace office; or they wish to get military training and participate in military style raids - and should therefore quit the police department and enlist in the military.

At least that was my take on his comment.

But I fully agree with your sentiment.

 

[Denny347]

I am normally a pretty good fan of LEO's, however I think 99% of these "raids" ought to be stopped and "SWAT TEAM's" eliminated. If you look at the raid information, you usually find (at least in this area), the "perp" has a fairly normal routine often working a regular job. Why can't they wait until the man is going to work - as he gets out of his car etc. and arrest him, it would be a lot safer for the police and everyone else - then with a proper search warrant - search his apartment? Seems like a lot of the departments just like to play soldier.

I did not see anyhting about a SWAT raid on this story. It said that some deputies and a detective were up at the apartment when 2 deputies were shot. They were shot with a "high powered" rifle and the standoff lasted for 15 minutes. So, the suspect is firing at officers with a high powered rifle and barricaded himself inside. What would you like patrol officers to do? Since there is no SWAT Team, there will be no heavy body armor, no body bunker, no CS gas and launchers. No tactics that would allow officers to enter an apartment with an armed gunman inside waiting for them to come in. Guess it is time to pack it up and move out. Let him turn himself in when he feels like it? I have a patrol rifle and bought my own SAPI plates and carrier. However, that is NOT a replacement for SWAT.

 

[PaulF]

I did not see anyhting about a SWAT raid on this story. It said that some deputies and a detective were up at the apartment when 2 deputies were shot. They were shot with a "high powered" rifle and the standoff lasted for 15 minutes. So, the suspect is firing at officers with a high powered rifle and barricaded himself inside. What would you like patrol officers to do? Since there is no SWAT Team, there will be no heavy body armor, no body bunker, no CS gas and launchers. No tactics that would allow officers to enter an apartment with an armed gunman inside waiting for them to come in. Guess it is time to pack it up and move out. Let him turn himself in when he feels like it? I have a patrol rifle and bought my own SAPI plates and carrier. However, that is NOT a replacement for SWAT.

Excellent point.

It doesn't really seem like these guys were "milliterized" at all, rather a couple of average working cops working a fairly routine case...

...they did bring three dudes (actually more).

As for clearing the building before engaging the suspect, well...I can attest to that first-hand: about 15 years ago Marion County SWAT responded to an escalated domestic disturbance, where the suspect had blockaded himself in his apartment with a hostage (and a weapon, supposedly). The SWAT team came to my patio door and asked me to come with them (um..pucker!). I obliged, and they informed me as to what was going on. They did the same with the other neighbors, but upstairs they used the interior doors.

Only after they could account for everyone did they begin to approach the suspect.

I think this looks more like a really bad day at the office than careless policework.



-Paul

Aside: Denny, did you have to provide your own patrol rifle or is that something the department provides?

 

[churchmouse]

Excellent point.

It doesn't really seem like these guys were "milliterized" at all, rather a couple of average working cops working a fairly routine case...

...they did bring three dudes (actually more).

As for clearing the building before engaging the suspect, well...I can attest to that first-hand: about 15 years ago Marion County SWAT responded to an escalated domestic disturbance, where the suspect had blockaded himself in his apartment with a hostage (and a weapon, supposedly). The SWAT team came to my patio door and asked me to come with them (um..pucker!). I obliged, and they informed me as to what was going on. They did the same with the other neighbors, but upstairs they used the interior doors.

Only after they could account for everyone did they begin to approach the suspect.

I think this looks more like a really bad day at the office than careless policework.



-Paul

Aside: Denny, did you have to provide your own patrol rifle or is that something the department provides?

We can have a really bad day at the office. They can not in these instances.
Just saying....think about what can and may happen. They knew the man was armed.

 

[phylodog]

They could have evacuated and we'd be reading a story about how the police have no right to ask someone to leave their home.

As Denny pointed out, this wasn't a SWAT team. Could they have approached the guy on the street? Sure. Then when a gunfight ensued there and collateral damage resulted we could scream about how that was reckless and they should have done something different like followed him around 24/7 till he took a seat in a public stall then nailed him there.

Not all SWAT teams are created equal. We have those in society who would like to see all guns banned because some folks do stupid things with them. I see similarity with some of the arguments about SWAT teams in this forum. How about we judge a team based on their actions? Crazy I guess...

 

[TheFireArmorer]

It boils down to the fact that they should never have fired their weapons in the building until they were sure that no one innocent was in the line of fire.

They should have cleared the building first if they thought there was at all a possibility of shots being fired.

If they did not believe a shoot out might occur, then at the point the suspect opened fire, I would imagine it much smarter to retreat, clear the building, and return. Kick some a$$, take some names, and call it a day.

Not being LEO, I can't really speak from experience. But, common ( i guess not so common) sense would tell me not to start shooting wildly into a wall that may possibly have an innocent behind it.

I counted 14 holes in the wall, kinda seems like the famous spray and pray tactic lol.