Police force open a door

[CathyInBlue]

Which is only right and proper.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

The article doesn't say what kind of "welfare check" the officer was performing, but he was shot and killed as a result.

Cold Spring, Minn. Police Officer Fatally Shot During Welfare Check

 

[Bunnykid68]

More than a few agency's are revamping sop's since the new shoot the police law. It is probable that people in need will die over this. Right now a suicidal armed person that is barricaded and not threatening others is left to do whatever they decide. We are leaving. Just the way it is. Want to shoot yourself? Knock yourself out because I could care less.

You are going to see more and more agency's go to this line of thinking.

New shoot the police law?

 

[coyn]

New shoot the police law?

AKA The castile doctrine AKA Defend against an unlawful intruder.

The poster just tried to give a bad connotation to the law.

I wondered if I was the only one that caught that BTW

 

[rw496]

posthumous vindication of rightness

 

[thebishopp]

AKA The castile doctrine AKA Defend against an unlawful intruder.

The poster just tried to give a bad connotation to the law.

I wondered if I was the only one that caught that BTW

Nope I caught it too. I am still waiting for the "blood in the streets" those that were against the law kept saying was going to happen . Hasn't happened yet. Just like I'm waiting for all the people who own firearms and carry them to suddenly start shooting people willy nilly as the gun control people said they would. That hasn't happened yet either.

 

[thebishopp]

More than a few agency's are revamping sop's since the new shoot the police law. It is probable that people in need will die over this. Right now a suicidal armed person that is barricaded and not threatening others is left to do whatever they decide. We are leaving. Just the way it is. Want to shoot yourself? Knock yourself out because I could care less.

You are going to see more and more agency's go to this line of thinking.

Sounds good!

 

[Kutnupe14]

Sounds good!

So you're saying that if it's one of your loved ones that contemplating suicide, and your too far away to make a difference, you're simply going to hang up the phone (or they hang up on you), and go "oh well?"

 

[coyn]

Nope I caught it too. I am still waiting for the "blood in the streets" those that were against the law kept saying was going to happen . Hasn't happened yet. Just like I'm waiting for all the people who own firearms and carry them to suddenly start shooting people willy nilly as the gun control people said they would. That hasn't happened yet either.

What?!?! This hasn't happened yet?? You don't say... Shocking...

 

[coyn]

So you're saying that if it's one of your loved ones that contemplating suicide, and your too far away to make a difference, you're simply going to hang up the phone (or they hang up on you), and go "oh well?"

I don't think anyone is going to say "oh well" if it were their family. I think it would be better for the police to try to talk the person out and get them help rather than breaking down the door, if possible. Try to use the negotiating skills first rather than the forcible entry skills right away.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I don't think anyone is going to say "oh well" if it were their family. I think it would be better for the police to try to talk the person out and get them help rather than breaking down the door, if possible. Try to use the negotiating skills first rather than the forcible entry skills right away.

That is exactly what typically happens. I've had to force entry twice recently for a suicide and welfare check. On involved a 90 year old WWII vet who, when found, was on the brink of death, and had been laying in his own excrement for 2 days after falling in his basement. His son was too lazy to come check on his father, and lived minutes away.

The other involved a man who was estranged from his wife, who she suspected was going to kill himself. She told us the guy hated police and had a lot of guns, but she wanted "us" to go in and check on him. Due to SB1, there was no way we were going to enter that home by breaking down a door. We made the wife respond and give us a key. The husband had changed the locks, that day, so we had to force entry. The guy was upstairs, and had expired due to sealing off an upstairs room, bringing a firepit inside, and lighting it (CO2 poisoning). We worked on the guy, vomit and all, but to no avail. I'm not sure if that hour we waited outside whould have made a difference, but it may have. The woman blamed us for not making entry prior to her arrival. And I spent the next 2 hours sitting next to an ambulance waiting for my CO2 levels to go down.

 

[thebishopp]

So you're saying that if it's one of your loved ones that contemplating suicide, and your too far away to make a difference, you're simply going to hang up the phone (or they hang up on you), and go "oh well?"

If one of my loved ones were contemplating suicide it would be great if they allowed others to help them.

HOWEVER, I would not blame the police if they didn't bust down their door. In fact it would probably be better for all involved if they did not. Events seem to indicate that things do not turn out well (person threatens suicide, police break in and wind up shooting suicidal person - how is this better?).

The fact is it that if they are not a danger to anyone else it is just not their responsibility (heck even if they are a danger to others the courts have ruled they are not Constitutionally responsible).

In the end you either support the Constitution or you don't. You either want a nanny government or you do not.

 

[jbombelli]

More than a few agency's are revamping sop's since the new shoot the police law. It is probable that people in need will die over this. Right now a suicidal armed person that is barricaded and not threatening others is left to do whatever they decide. We are leaving. Just the way it is. Want to shoot yourself? Knock yourself out because I could care less.

You are going to see more and more agency's go to this line of thinking.

I approve of that line of thinking.

 

[thebishopp]

That is exactly what typically happens. I've had to force entry twice recently for a suicide and welfare check. On involved a 90 year old WWII vet who, when found, was on the brink of death, and had been laying in his own excrement for 2 days after falling in his basement. His son was too lazy to come check on his father, and lived minutes away.

The other involved a man who was estranged from his wife, who she suspected was going to kill himself. She told us the guy hated police and had a lot of guns, but she wanted "us" to go in and check on him. Due to [STRIKE]SB1[/STRIKE] THE 4th AMENDMENT, there was no way we were going to enter that home by breaking down a door. We made the wife respond and give us a key. The husband had changed the locks, that day, so we had to force entry. The guy was upstairs, and had expired due to sealing off an upstairs room, bringing a firepit inside, and lighting it (CO2 poisoning). We worked on the guy, vomit and all, but to no avail. I'm not sure if that hour we waited outside whould have made a difference, but it may have. The woman blamed us for not making entry prior to her arrival. And I spent the next 2 hours sitting next to an ambulance waiting for my CO2 levels to go down.

FIFY

Look a person wants to kill themselves, while tragic (sometimes) it's a personal decision. We may not agree with it or like it (sometimes) but that's just the way it is. Programs should be in place to help people but I just don't subscribe to the "we are going to help you even to the point of killing you or else" mentality.

As far as to your first example regarding the 90yr old. There should be options available for the elderly (kind of like life alert) that notify private agencies with standing agreements with medical agencies that are allowed (through virtue of this standing agreement or contract) to make entry.

I don't believe the answer is scrapping our Constitutionally protected rights in order to be more "protected" and to absolve us of the personal responsibility of doing whatever we can do protect or help ourselves first.

 

[Kutnupe14]

FIFY

Look a person wants to kill themselves, while tragic (sometimes) it's a personal decision. We may not agree with it or like it (sometimes) but that's just the way it is. Programs should be in place to help people but I just don't subscribe to the "we are going to help you even to the point of killing you or else" mentality.

As far as to your first example regarding the 90yr old. There should be options available for the elderly (kind of like life alert) that notify private agencies with standing agreements with medical agencies that are allowed (through virtue of this standing agreement or contract) to make entry.

I don't believe the answer is scrapping our Constitutionally protected rights in order to be more "protected" and to absolve us of the personal responsibility of doing whatever we can do protect or help ourselves first.

I would support a person killing themself just as long as it absolves public services from having to care for their body. If you neighbor kills himself, and stinks up the place, creating a serious health risk to you and your family, you will not have the ability to call police/fire/coroner to pick up and dispose of the body. Any grievance you may have, you will have to take up with the estate of the deceased. That makes sense right? This is the endgame you're suggesting.

 

[Jakob]

I would love to see the news report where a "dead man was arrested" for committing suicide. Didn't know that was "illegal" Lol

 

[KLB]

I would support a person killing themself just as long as it absolves public services from having to care for their body. If you neighbor kills himself, and stinks up the place, creating a serious health risk to you and your family, you will not have the ability to call police/fire/coroner to pick up and dispose of the body. Any grievance you may have, you will have to take up with the estate of the deceased. That makes sense right? This is the endgame you're suggesting.

Is that how it works if someone does of a heart attack in their home?

 

[thebishopp]

I would support a person killing themself just as long as it absolves public services from having to care for their body. If you neighbor kills himself, and stinks up the place, creating a serious health risk to you and your family, you will not have the ability to call police/fire/coroner to pick up and dispose of the body. Any grievance you may have, you will have to take up with the estate of the deceased. That makes sense right? This is the endgame you're suggesting.

Actually that is fine by me. By the way the smell is pretty contained within a house. I have worked a case where the deceased had been baking on her sofa for nearly two weeks in the middle of the summer. Her insides had liquefied and she was like a bag of jello. Smelled pretty bad inside but not so much out side. Oh it was a trailer in a trailer park. Not as well insulated as a normal home of course so you did get a bit of a whiff outside the closed door when you walked up.

I also worked new orleans after katrina. Lots of bad smells there too so try to frighten someone else into letting you kick down their door with that "smell is a serious health risk" BS. You can ditch the extremist "can't call anyone to haul away" the body bs as well. No reason that after a person is dead you can't kick down the door if you can't find someone to open it up for you or better yet get a warrant based on the PC he is dead (suicide threat, whatever, smell of decaying body wafting from the premises). I pay taxes, maybe it should go to something like this instead of wasting it on god knows what these days.

The point is there are ways to work this out rather than just smashing apart the 4th Amendment whenever we feel like it. It should not be so easy to work around these protections supposedly built into our Constitution. There should be penalties when a mistake is made.

How about this. Put into place a specific penalty payable by the city/state/etc. let's say, 250,000 (it should hurt) if you bust in and nothing is wrong and the department can decide if any disciplinary action is necessary for the officer based on the circumstances.

 

[thebishopp]

Is that how it works if someone does of a heart attack in their home?

According to him it does. Most likely because he didn't know about it ahead of time to go kicking in the door.

 

[Liberty Sanders]

There's suicide and there's suicide...it is not a one size fits all scenario.

Some years ago one of our retired captains developed cancer. He was one of the "good" captains, always good to his troops, and had many visitors.

As the cancer progressed, he announced his intention to determine the moment of his death himself and not leave himself at the mercy of the disease.

A day came when several officers were visiting. He told them the exact date and time that he intended to take his leave. He asked us to respond afterwards and perform the appropriate tasks.

Word got around and a well-meaning but young officer suggested going to the captain's home and taking his firearms. We suggested he get his affairs in order and go ahead and try. The captain was legendary for his strong will. The brass despised him because he always did what was right, not what was politically correct. There wasn't enough gold in Ft. Knox nor enough tea in China that could have persuaded any of us to interfere.

The appointed time came and went, and a small delegation went to the captain's home, where, as expected, he was found with a single gunshot to the head from his service revolver.

The captain was of sound mind, and made his decision after careful and rational consideration of his options. He had every right in the world to deal with the matter as he did. I do not advocate interfering in such decisions. Fortunately the police are seldom called upon to intervene in such cases.

This is a far cry from a person who threatens his own life NOT after careful reflection, but as a result of crippling mental disease that ROBS the person of the ability to make rational decisions, disease that can be not only treated but reversed if the sufferer can be delivered to competant medical professionals.

Many times I stood at a door trying to reason with a seriously depressed suicidal individual on the other side, trying to talk him down. I'm a good talker and most times I succeeded.

But sometimes it was very clear that the person was in the throes of his illness and could no longer process the information that I was transmitting. He was not acting out of free choice any more than a toddler freely chooses to walk out in front of traffic. You don't ASK a toddler to not walk in front of speeding automobiles...you INTERVENE.

When I realized the sufferer could not be reached, I made the decision and gathered my men. We broke in, overwhelmed the victim by force, handcuffed him and took him away. Speed was critical and we didn't always have the luxury of being gentle, but the choice between being blitzkrieged by a mob of cops or swallowing a can of Drano is a no brainer for anyone whose brain is their own to command.

I make no apologies for this. Some here will say I interfered with the person's rights. I didn't interfere with them...I protected them, so that the individual could enjoy them freely again at some later time.

A person who is rational needs no protection from his own thoughts. A person crippled by mental illness MUST have protection from his own thoughts.