Preparing for an Appleseed

[Hawkeye]

The current issue of Backwoods Home Magazine has a good article on preparing for an Appleseed. Authored by Massad Ayoob, it takes you through a lot of the basics. Good start for a first-timer, or review for a returning shooter.

 

[ol' Huff]

Mass is the man. Also, he is a good Appleseeder. He has sent many people there. We try to tell people that less really is better, if for no other reason than it prevents distraction and allows for more focus and reflection. It may be time for us to do a video on how to prep for shoots and post it here. Techres did one a while ago and i think he would agree that he still had too much stuff.

Ayoob is great, and very bright. I was walking down an aisle at the NRA Con last year and he was walking the other way. I thanked him for his help promoting the program and he gave me a good solid five minutes of his time to shoot the breeze about Appleseed and my philosophy on being an instructor. He seemed like a nice fella. I think a lot of folks don't realize how small the shooting industry can be. A lot of shooting industry "celebs" are normal folk and like to talk shooting as much as the next guy. Michael Bain from Shooting Gallery spoke to me and techres for an hour. I was standing in line behind Matt hughes waiting on breakfast and told him how my judo sensei uses his wrestling techniques to instruct us on entering into ground fighting. I asked him what he thought the best way was to transition into the ground game from the clinch if you had poor knee bend and we talked for probably ten minutes about setting up inside foot sweeps from the clinch (I am glad my ears aren't as chewed up as his). He asked me when I started playing judo and I said "30," and his response was, "I bet you get the crap kicked out of you a lot." I said I do (because its true).

 

[Wild Deuce]

At the risk of derailing the thread ...

I was watching a shooting show (I think it was Shooting USA) and they were interviewing a brand new shooter (you could still smell the new through the TV) who was at a pistol match. He had just finished a stage when the off camera interviewer asked if he had any idea who had just run downrange to help reset his (new shooter's) targets. He was so new, that he didn't realize that Jerry Miculek and (I think) Doug Koenig had just run down range to paste and reset targets for him. Yep ... most of them are down to earth.

I have heard Mas's name floated around in regards to Appleseed. I didn't realize he was a supporter. Good to hear.

 

[ol' Huff]

Mas loves Appleseed. Writes a couple columns a year on it. A lot of people here on ingo have commented on Appleseed's image problem. I often wonder if a different name would add to the perception of legitimacy.

 

[Hawkeye]

What is Appleseeds image problem? I didn't know it had one. Feel free to PM me if you think it better than discussing it here.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

What is Appleseeds image problem? I didn't know it had one. Feel free to PM me if you think it better than discussing it here.

Somehow everyone that has not been to an appleseed does not think it is as awesome as everyone who has been to an appleseed thinks it is. That's a problem because if we could communicate what the weekends really are like, we would get tons more shooters.

It really is hard to explain to people what these clinics are like. I think you have to experience it to really "get it".

 

[ol' Huff]

Some dude on another thread thought we were old Legion guys doing history lectures at pancake breakfasts. That a pretty far cry from trying to teach people to drill an apple at 200 yards with just a sling and bulk ammo. We get that a lot. I had a guy from Vermont tell me the bench rest shooters ar his range called the Appleseed instructors the Apple Dumpling Gang.
No one is ever going to say that to Slow2Speak or Brown.

Its weird. At an NRA board of directors meeting a member asked if anyone was familiar with the quality of Appleseed. The two who had been, including the one who is in charge of training, said that it was the rifle clinic by which all others should be measured. Three different board members came up to our booth at the NRA Con to tell that story. We get that kind of buy in but we struggle to fill lines

TBE probably summed it up best. Its hard to explain till you have gone to a shoot and stared down the Redcoat.

 

[ATM]

...I think you have to experience it to really "get it".

Not unlike trying to describe Bacon.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Having just finished my first a few weeks ago, the remark about image made me pause. We had 29 people at our shoot and the demographics ran the gamut. To be honest it was a refreshing change from the "tactical" sense to just focus again on the fundamentals, or more appropriately "forgotten principles". While many may see it as a weakness, I think that is the program's real strength when paired with the history it teaches. It was a very open and non-threatening atmosphere and most importantly non-partisan which I think is important.

I was really struck with the family with 3 generations on the line together, there had to be 6 or 7 of them sticking it out through 90+ heat for 2 days. I was able to see their interaction as their groups shrunk and they improved. It was very gratifying to watch and I couldn't help but think of the positive coming out of the whole experience. If you could capture this somehow and market that, there would be no image problem at all, that is the key I believe.

Personally, it was just as challenging as any training I have done and I got more out of one day than I have have in some 2 or 4 day classes. I was able to learn things I have really wanted to drill down inot such as sling manipulation, NPOA, and field shooting positions that I honestly use more than any of the "tac" reloads etc. I have drilled in other classes while out in the woods and field. I think most shooters fall on one side or another of a line, "tactical" and "target" when they really can compliment each other. I had to constantly remind a friend of ine who shot the same 'Seed that this same marksmanship training served our military just fine for 2 world wars and the likes of Murphy, York, Hathcock, etc.

I would definitely say that, in the one day I signed up, I learned more and advance more as a rifle shooter than I did in my 8 years as an infantryman, and 10 years after that as an active participant in club level competitive shooting. I personally qualified with a 217 my first AQT on my first and only day, but it took everything I had to tweak some old habits and incorporate new knowledge to get there and what the instructors taught worked and made a difference.

I surely hope that Appleseed can continue to grow as it is now long after the wave of popularity has peaked. National exposure such as Fox news etc. has certainly helped and I think the Liberty Seed component is a great idea and a needed option for a venue for the message to be spread sans firearms, no matter the politics.

Maybe it's a matter of tweaking vocabulary when describing the course, publishing first time qualification rates so people really understand the difficulty and level of skill involved, or incorporating more KD opportunities so people don't think poo-poo the .22 shoots even though are as if not more challenging. I say drive on, just as the bullet is the truth, so is your message as they are linked by history and the hands that shaped it.

 

[ATM]

^ fatguyinalittlecoat "gets it". Well done, Rifleman!

And referring back to the topic of preparing for an Appleseed, it seems he brought the most important thing to maximize the benefit and enjoyment of an Appleseed event

...a teachable attitude.

 

[Pitmaster]

^ fatguyinalittlecoat "gets it". Well done, Rifleman!

And referring back to the topic of preparing for an Appleseed, it seems he brought the most important thing to maximize the benefit and enjoyment of an Appleseed event

...a teachable attitude.

I was thinking along the lines of instructor material.

 

[ol' Huff]

Yeah. And a funny forum name

 

[buckstopshere]

NM

 

[Hawkeye]

Its really intersting, all this discussion on Appleseed. I have been to 2 now. The first was in Wabash nearly 3 years ago, along with one of my duaghters. The second was at Napannee a couple of weeks ago by myself. I've enjoyed and learned at both and my duaghter did as well, in fact, her Twin would like to og to one also.

I've been trying to convince a friend of mine to go to one with me. I get all the standard objections. Don't have a 10/22. (That's ok borrow or bring what youve got.) Can't possibally take a whole weekend for that. (OK. so do one day then.) All that sort of stuff.

Now, he's been shooting a lot over the years. I think almost all at the bench. So I know that he, kind of like me, thinks he's fine! Well, he'll learn.

I'm trying to get him to go to the Ossian Appleseed with me over Labor Day. I'm sure the holiday weekend will raise an objection, too. He hasn't brought that up yet, though.

When I explained the approach to a 2-day 'seed and the 2-day course of fire - his reaction was "so I should just go to the Sunday then" (because he, obviously, thinks he's already got it all)! I told him that, of course, he could do that. but in my opinion he would be very disappointed. I suggested that he would learn MUCH more by going to Saturday, and he'd still have a chance to shoot an AQT (or maybe even more than one, depending on the instructors, etc.) I'm not sure he appreciated the implication that he woould need the Saturday training and instruction. Maybe he wouldn't, but I think most of us do. I fully expect that the next time I go, I'll probably shoot my first Redcoat and it won't be as good as I shot on Sunday of the previous one.

So, wht do I think the biggest thing for me to do to prepare for my next 'seed? Should I do a lot of shooting? Maybe. but What I really, truly think I need to do is a concentrated and contiuous program of stretching for my lower back and legs. That and practice the sitting position, and moving from standing to sitting. That is where I shot worst, never did get all ten shots on that string off. I know that sitting is supposed to be the second best postion, and probably more practical than prone, especiall when truly in the field. But it is clearly my most physically uncomfortable one - which affects my concentration and mindset.

 

[Pitmaster]

Focus on the Steady Hold Factors, Natural Point of Aim, and Six Steps to Firing A Shot using dry fire from prone. Prone in the AQT are the money shots.

I should point out that I'm a believer in getting the first things correct and then adding the rest. Standing, sitting, and transitions will be quicker to learn after mastering prone. I'm guessing 3x a week for 30 minutes each and you should be good to go by Labor Day.

 

[Hawkeye]

Focus on the Steady Hold Factors, Natural Point of Aim, and Six Steps to Firing A Shot using dry fire from prone. Prone in the AQT are the money shots.

I should point out that I'm a believer in getting the first things correct and then adding the rest. Standing, sitting, and transitions will be quicker to learn after mastering prone. I'm guessing 3x a week for 30 minutes each and you should be good to go by Labor Day.

All good points in general; however, my groups were acceptable to me, especially on the second stage of prone. I'll have to look back at my targets to be sure, but I think I only got ~ 4 or 5 shots off in the sitting, and due to the physical discomfort, lack of practice in that position, etc. - the groups and strings were pretty inconsistent.

A realtively small amount of work on the Six Steps, cadence, and NPOA will fix my prone up pretty well. A LOT of work on stretching and practicing the sitting positions will get me more comfortable with that stage...

Oh, the other thing I need to work on is practicing the mag changes. I was fumbling around too much on that, and that costs a LOT of time on 65 and 55 second times. Well, learning patience on the second stage of prone might not be a bad idea, too.... You might almost be able to wait until those around you are done shooting before you start - could eliminate some distractions that way!

 

[AuntieBellum]

Hawkeye, I would specifically work on what you suggested - stretching and getting into/out of seated. Your standing and prone groups were great. And I can all but guarantee the stretching will help you out in prone, too. There's a lot to be said for just running through the motions and dry-firing in the living room. Get the mechanics all smooth, practice plopping down into a perfect position, and then rest is just the six steps.

fatguyinalittlecoat...which event were you at? Just curious to see if it was the same one Hawkeye was at. The event in Nappanee was a good shoot, and it certainly covered the gamut of demographics and had a 3-gen family in attendance.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Yep, I shot at Nappanee...

 

[cwillour]

What I really, truly think I need to do is a concentrated and contiuous program of stretching for my lower back and legs. That and practice the sitting position, and moving from standing to sitting. That is where I shot worst, never did get all ten shots on that string off. I know that sitting is supposed to be the second best postion, and probably more practical than prone, especiall when truly in the field. But it is clearly my most physically uncomfortable one - which affects my concentration and mindset.

I know what you mean. I was stretching for two weeks and wore the sweats just to try and allow myself to move quickly into the sitting position. In the end, I ended up just stepping into a kneeling (sitting on my back foot with ankle to the ground) since I realized I would use up half my time just trying to get seated and find an NPOA. It did OK for me and I may have to stick with it, but I would like to get to a more stable position for my next 'seed.

For me, the biggest downside to the kneeling was the exaggerated breathing movement and body sway. Trusting my NPOA worked out OK, but there was a tremendous amount of movement through the breathing cycle which made breath-control far more critical than it was for me in the other positions and created a tendency to want to muscle my sights to stay on the target.

On the plus side, transitioning targets became a simple matter of moving my strong-side knee to open the angle. By starting a little closed (stable, but not a wide spread) I found I could keep my support knee stable and simply move my other leg a few degrees to shift targets.

Overall, though, I will probably focus most on the basics (as mentioned) and getting more comfortable with my rifle. For example, I realized I have a major problem getting a good cheek-weld. In the past, I would spot-weld with my nose between the knuckle and fingernail of my thumb, but one of the instructors pointed out that I was dragging wood. The only way I could figure out to keep my trigger finger clear of the stock was by rotating my thumb to sit on top of my hand instead of across the stock. My groups seemed to improve after making the adjustment, but this played havoc with my spotting for sight alignment.