Preparing for the Drones

[the1kidd03]

Good to hear.
I happen to be very good at electromagnetic things. I actually get paid for it...

Same here. I work in a very wide variety of technological fields.

I don't know their typical altitude and how effective you could get EMP at such a distance, but it's feasible at least. Taking one down really wouldn't be all that difficult for a citizen to accomplish IMO, provided you could SEE it.

 

[the1kidd03]

Some technology exists:
'Ghost' Camouflage Hides from FLIR | Military.com

With this technology v. tactics discussion, I think defensive tactics against FLIR/UV are better than trying to come up with a technology solution, at least in a field expedient sense.

How often will anyone "know" if they're being targeted by FLIR? An assumption would have to be made that FLIR is ALWAYS a possible threat, so any defensive measure would have to be almost permanent.

So, consistent tactics to stymie FLIR (IMHO) would be better than trying to come up with some kind of temporary technological fix. Granted, in certain situations when it is clear that FLIR is in the area, the mentioned "wool blanket" trick might suffice as a tactic.

All IMHO (untested in any sort of fieldcraft).

I believe that with a layered design of material such as discussed previously put into an outer garment and/or cover design it would be eaily fielded. Similar to the outer garment of the new extreme cold weather gear they issue. It's purpose is strictly camo, but it is very baggy to fit over your other insulating layers.

The problem with keeping it on though would be on that of the man wearing it and causing overheating concerns while hiking over the area. As the temperature increases inside the outer garment it would on the outside surface as well. My suggestions to counter some of this would be to stitch strips of small ventilation holes at various points which would be joined directly to the layers of material between layers of mylar. Perhaps cotton stuffing would be a good material in the middle layers to allow adequate air flow and movement?!? IDK, I'm not a seamstress or whatever they're called. The garment would be difficult to make, but with time and ability to test it could be done. Military wouldn't buy into it though because of high cost caused by labor to make.

 

[flatlander]

Okay, I have used thermals (good, mil grade) and tested them, in the field, year round against mylar, space blankets etc. You will not be able to craft a field expedient, effective counter measure against thermals. Period. You have to go to ground, and get behind , or under something of substance.

This is not theory, or youtubes or the internet knowledge. I am talking real world, and what works.

Keep working on it.

As OPFOR at Ft. Irwin and Ft. Polk for over 5 years, there are ways to hide. A big part of the equation is the operator of the equipment also. I know I only have limited experience (21 years and a wee bit of time in combat areas) but BTDT so it can be done. Disipate the heat and concealing the signature can be effectively done. Use you imagination and you may find out your head may be used for something other than a frickin hat rack

Bob

 

[ghostdncr]

Highly doubtful. The ones I'm familiar with are built REALLY flemsily. They could easily be taken down by civilians with a little enginuity and a means to deliver at altitude accurately.

Kamikaze? Seems more plausible than defeating thermal. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBE_tmkdS8I

 

[the1kidd03]

Kamikaze? Seems more plausible than defeating thermal. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBE_tmkdS8I

Exactly what I was thinking when writing that post. Something large enough to carry a small video camera to send signal back to a laptop with the end being rigged with some sort of a charge and primer.

Anything's possible with a little creativity and a means to do it.

 

[Liberty's Teeth]

Some technology exists:
'Ghost' Camouflage Hides from FLIR | Military.com

With this technology v. tactics discussion, I think defensive tactics against FLIR/UV are better than trying to come up with a technology solution, at least in a field expedient sense.

How often will anyone "know" if they're being targeted by FLIR? An assumption would have to be made that FLIR is ALWAYS a possible threat, so any defensive measure would have to be almost permanent.

So, consistent tactics to stymie FLIR (IMHO) would be better than trying to come up with some kind of temporary technological fix. Granted, in certain situations when it is clear that FLIR is in the area, the mentioned "wool blanket" trick might suffice as a tactic.

All IMHO (untested in any sort of fieldcraft).

I am considering my own situation in regards to FLIR. If I ever found myself in a situation where thermal evasion might be necessary I would probably have geography on my side. What I mean is, I won't be in the high desert where thermal performs the best, I.e. wide expanses of flat unconstructed land. I would more likely be in a forested area where line of sight is limited.

I feel detection in this situation would only come from shorter distances or directly from above. In both situations I feel on even ground with my adversary...I might just be looking right back at them with FLIR...on my territory. If need be I could temporarily camouflage myself. Heck, the best way to win a gun fight is not to get in one. It would be a different story if I was in wide open flat terrain. Thermal camouflage would be necessary.

I am not just worried about UAV's but also hand held and vehicle Thermal.

 

[T.Lex]

Just had a somewhat different idea. I've played around with IR emitters for a hobby project, and this led me to 2 different ideas in the context of this thread.

1 - Flooding. Is there some way to flood an area with IR-range emissions, such that it would effectively mask whatever was there. Granted, a downside of this is that it would instantly draw attention, and, since a visible-spectrum camera will probably also be available, additional steps would have to be taken to protect against that.

2 - Burn-out. Is there any kind of emitter that could effectively burn out the lens/receptor of the IR camera? Don't DVD players have some sort of IR-spectrum laser?

 

[Liberty's Teeth]

Just had a somewhat different idea. I've played around with IR emitters for a hobby project, and this led me to 2 different ideas in the context of this thread.

1 - Flooding. Is there some way to flood an area with IR-range emissions, such that it would effectively mask whatever was there. Granted, a downside of this is that it would instantly draw attention, and, since a visible-spectrum camera will probably also be available, additional steps would have to be taken to protect against that.

2 - Burn-out. Is there any kind of emitter that could effectively burn out the lens/receptor of the IR camera? Don't DVD players have some sort of IR-spectrum laser?

I think you might be talking about near infrared as opposed to infrared. Near IR is just outside of the visible light spectrum. Thermal is longer wavelengths.

That being said, I am not sure if you can overload a thermal sensor.

 

[the1kidd03]

Just had a somewhat different idea. I've played around with IR emitters for a hobby project, and this led me to 2 different ideas in the context of this thread.

1 - Flooding. Is there some way to flood an area with IR-range emissions, such that it would effectively mask whatever was there. Granted, a downside of this is that it would instantly draw attention, and, since a visible-spectrum camera will probably also be available, additional steps would have to be taken to protect against that.

2 - Burn-out. Is there any kind of emitter that could effectively burn out the lens/receptor of the IR camera? Don't DVD players have some sort of IR-spectrum laser?

Yeah, I don't think they're on a similar enough wavelength for it to have such an effect if my memory serves me correctly. Good idea though.

 

[WETSU]

As OPFOR at Ft. Irwin and Ft. Polk for over 5 years, there are ways to hide. A big part of the equation is the operator of the equipment also. I know I only have limited experience (21 years and a wee bit of time in combat areas) but BTDT so it can be done. Disipate the heat and concealing the signature can be effectively done. Use you imagination and you may find out your head may be used for something other than a frickin hat rack

Bob

Agreed. You are totally correct. There are ways, but a space blanket isn't a viable one. IMO.

 

[irishfan]

Agreed. You are totally correct. There are ways, but a space blanket isn't a viable one. IMO.

I would think it would give little at best as far as protection. Honestly, I know it sounds weird but I have wondered if covering exposed areas with fresh cool mud would not limit your exposure in short lengths of time.

 

[Rocket]

Mythbusters defeated heat sensors with a bed sheet held above their head. Short term yes. But could cover an entrance

 

[nickc]

i'm not gonna lie.. i doubt we'd know a drone was coming... i doubt we'd have much defense against one...

 

[irishfan]

i'm not gonna lie.. i doubt we'd know a drone was coming... i doubt we'd have much defense against one...

I'm not concerned as I always have tin foil wherever I go. Hopefully, I can have one of the more left wingers I associate with from time to time with me for fodder so I can get under a rock. No I am not joking about getting under a rock

 

[Liberty's Teeth]

i'm not gonna lie.. i doubt we'd know a drone was coming... i doubt we'd have much defense against one...

That is the nice thing about the landscape in the midwest. Unless you are standing in the middle of a bare field they can't see you too easily. What is the old saying, you can't see the forest for the trees?

 

[spearheadersarge]

I believe there is a big difference between FLIR and Thermal imaging. I know that the systems in use on armored combat vehicles is super sensitive concerning the difference betweeen background temps and any heat source. If memory serves, I think it was subcooled to some ridiculous negative number so that even minor heat sources showed up bright as the sun! FLIR is a type of radar detecting emitted returns, not the difference in temps. I have personally "seen" people walking around behind obstacles and inside hardened buildings with the night site on a M2 BFV. If the equipment on a drone is as sensitive as that I think there is little we could do to defeat said system. Check out gun camera footage from Iraq/Afghan and you can see that the people engaged had no clue they were being observed/targeted. The illusion of safety during the night WILL get you killed!

 

[Liberty's Teeth]

I believe there is a big difference between FLIR and Thermal imaging. I know that the systems in use on armored combat vehicles is super sensitive concerning the difference betweeen background temps and any heat source. If memory serves, I think it was subcooled to some ridiculous negative number so that even minor heat sources showed up bright as the sun! FLIR is a type of radar detecting emitted returns, not the difference in temps. I have personally "seen" people walking around behind obstacles and inside hardened buildings with the night site on a M2 BFV. If the equipment on a drone is as sensitive as that I think there is little we could do to defeat said system. Check out gun camera footage from Iraq/Afghan and you can see that the people engaged had no clue they were being observed/targeted. The illusion of safety during the night WILL get you killed!

FLIR is Foward Looking Infra Red, so it is thermal imaging. You are correct, to the best of my knowledge the drones use what are called "cooled imagers". These imagers are different from the one that I used in the video as instead of using microbolometers (mini thermometers) they detect the actual photons from the heat source electrically (the same way a video camera detects light). I simplified the explanation in the video. They are more sensitive than the cheaper models.

That being said, they have to find you first. These cameras generally have a zoom lens. When the picture is at it's widest you might only represent a pixel or so on the camera and you have to be identified by either a person or analytics. If you are detected they can then zoom in to take a closer look. The more you minimize your heat signature the closer the camera has to be for detection. To explain again, a whole person giving off a heat signature represents 5-10 square feet of emmissions. If you could cloak everything but say your head and give off 1-2 square feet the imager would have to be 5 times closer to detect you. This is what I am aiming for.