Primer dents

[lrahm]

I'll see what I can do.

 

[ryknoll3]

One thing about the M16/AR bolt system that makes slam fires due to dirty firing pin channels more difficult is that when the bolt opens and "telescopes" the firing pin is retracted because the collar hits on the bolt carrier. The crud would have to be actually in the bolt carrier, which is much less common as the tolerances are greater back there.

 

[Leo]

I started doing this back when we shot M-1 rifles and carried the habit to the M1a and to the AR's. I don't let the bolt slam forward, except during a match, where the muzzle is already on target. I use the op rod/charging handle and control the bolt until it is 1/2 the way home, having already picked up a round and having the said round already properly started in the chamber. This keeps the firing pin from hitting the primer so hard, and it keeps from banging up the bullet tip during the loading process. It is easier on the M1/M14 because it is a one hand operation, but it can be done on the little AR also. I still maintain extreme care with the muzzle direction. Good Luck

 

[JohnP82]

Nothing wrong with being safe and asking! You are good to go!

 

[Hayseed_40]

I use the op rod/charging handle and control the bolt until it is 1/2 the way home, having already picked up a round and having the said round already properly started in the chamber. This keeps the firing pin from hitting the primer so hard, and it keeps from banging up the bullet tip during the loading process.

Very bad practice for self defense or a duty gun. Too much potential for FTF. Let it strip a round and slam forward. That is what is was made to do. If you are worried, then chamber in a safe direction - but still let it go forward from lock-back.

I have been witness to thousands of rounds chambered on range and have never witnessed a slam fire on an AR in working order due to the firing pin. The only ones I have seen were due to the trigger control group going belly up.

The dimple is completely normal and will not cause a slam fire on good factory ammo in a good gun. I have rechambered the same 223 several times without issues. If you are worried about that, then limit it to one rechambering and it gets fired.

 

[need4speed255]

Everyone already answered your question numerous times. Everyone chew on this. Since the firing pin is floating by design then every time the weapon is fired the new round entering the chamber will be dimpled as well. I am sure most of you have fired hundreds and thousands of rounds with very few if any slam fires at all. I would say the odds are in our favor but it still can happen. That is why we are taught to always point the firearm in a safe direction.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I had this sinking feeling that one of these times it will discharge.

Really?!?! Did ATM have you post this to tick me off? He is soooo inscrutable.

Yes, as I have started over a dozen threads about this concern, all firearms can discharge upon loading or unloading. Those platforms with inertia firing pins, 1911, AR-15, 870 shotguns, are somewhat more prone.

Don't make me tell you about the 870 at Shootrite (yet again).

Everytime, every single time you load the weapon it CAN discharge. Everytime I load I expect the weapon to discharge because: 1. it can; 2. it has; 3. this way I'm not surprised.

Yeah, INGO mocks me because I post threads about when this happens and advocate sand barrels and roll my eyes when I am told to "just load it in the parking lot". However, better to learn from me telling you than to learn by a horrific tragedy.

It's a gun, it's only got one job--to shoot.

Tell the head of your FTU to get some sandbarrels set up, double quick.

 

[lrahm]

Really?!?! Did ATM have you post this to tick me off? He is soooo inscrutable.

Yes, as I have started over a dozen threads about this concern, all firearms can discharge upon loading or unloading. Those platforms with inertia firing pins, 1911, AR-15, 870 shotguns, are somewhat more prone.

Don't make me tell you about the 870 at Shootrite (yet again).

Everytime, every single time you load the weapon it CAN discharge. Everytime I load I expect the weapon to discharge because: 1. it can; 2. it has; 3. this way I'm not surprised.

Yeah, INGO mocks me because I post threads about when this happens and advocate sand barrels and roll my eyes when I am told to "just load it in the parking lot". However, better to learn from me telling you than to learn by a horrific tragedy.

It's a gun, it's only got one job--to shoot.

Tell the head of your FTU to get some sandbarrels set up, double quick.

No, he did not. There was another thread in reference to a rifle that someone was having problems with. He gave a very detailed answer to it. I sent him a private message explaining my problem and stated that it was worthy of a thread to get some answers. He didn't mention your name what so ever. I posted the thread and got the info I needed. I rely on this gun every day. It was infor I desperately needed.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Yes, everytime you load or unload the weapon can discharge even if you do not have your finger on the trigger.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...102244-just_unload_it_in_the_parking_lot.html

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...very_time_you_load_unload_it_can_go_bang.html

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...25-eez_gon_eez_not_safe_canadian_version.html

From the third thread, post of Kirk Freeman, post #4, April 2010:

Problem is that modern guns are "safe" so a lot of gun people think that this does not/can not happen without a finger being on a trigger.

Here's a lesson to open up eyes with your friends. Next time you are out with your AR platform at the range (not in your garage). Load your weapon and then unload it. Examine the cartridge that the gun spit out. See the dimple on the primer?

Yes, Virginia, guns go bang when you don't want them to go bang.

Eez gon, eez not safe.

I rely on this gun every day. It was infor I desperately needed.

So, since you rely on the gun daily then they did not go over this quirk with you during training?

That is disconcerting.

If you want recs for carbine training, just let us know.

 

[lrahm]

Yes, everytime you load or unload the weapon can discharge even if you do not have your finger on the trigger.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...102244-just_unload_it_in_the_parking_lot.html

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...very_time_you_load_unload_it_can_go_bang.html

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...25-eez_gon_eez_not_safe_canadian_version.html

From the third thread, post of Kirk Freeman, post #4, April 2010:

Problem is that modern guns are "safe" so a lot of gun people think that this does not/can not happen without a finger being on a trigger.

Here's a lesson to open up eyes with your friends. Next time you are out with your AR platform at the range (not in your garage). Load your weapon and then unload it. Examine the cartridge that the gun spit out. See the dimple on the primer?

Yes, Virginia, guns go bang when you don't want them to go bang.

Eez gon, eez not safe.



So, since you rely on the gun daily then they did not go over this quirk with you during training?

That is disconcerting.

If you want recs for carbine training, just let us know.

I talked this over with ATM who stated that this would be worthy of a new thread. I carry an AR at work. I carry it in "cruiser safe" mode. None in the chamber and the safety on. Everytime I chamber a round, it leaves a small dent on the primer. I have to chamber a round at least once a week. I then started to rotate my rounds. When I approached the range instructor, I found out that I am not the only one experiencing this problem no matter which brand. I had this sinking feeling that one of these times it will discharge. The instructor went as far as running the same round through his at least 200 times, no discharge. Is there anyone else experiencing the same problem or have any malfunctions? Please don't think of me as stupid, just cautious.

I think that had you read this, I addressed this in my first post. I wanted to get opinions of others. I wanted more information. Others gave that.

 

[ATM]

See, now the thread's getting interesting.

Kirk is joking about my advice to start a thread because I do know that he tilts against the majority regarding slamfire awareness.

I'm not sure if it's just a pet peeve or an actual safety crusade, but he is rather persistent (if not quixotic).

For the record, Kirk, my PM response began with this:

I think that would be a reasonable question for a thread.
There always exists the remote possibility of a slamfire when charging...

...so I have been listening.

 

[lrahm]

See, now the thread's getting interesting.

Kirk is joking about my advice to start a thread because I do know that he tilts against the majority regarding slamfire awareness.

I'm not sure if it's just a pet peeve or an actual safety crusade, but he is rather persistent (if not quixotic).

For the record, Kirk, my PM response began with this:



...so I have been listening.

I was a little miffed at first. I contemplated over the choice of my words. They were not meant to offend. I am about as safety minded as anyone. That is why I started this thread to get more info. Thanks. Kirk, no offense.

 

[shibumiseeker]

I was a little miffed at first. I contemplated over the choice of my words. They were not meant to offend. I am about as safety minded as anyone. That is why I started this thread to get more info. Thanks. Kirk, no offense.

And in partial answer to Kirk: note that in my response I didn't say it was "safe." I said it was "normal." There's a difference

ANY firearm can fire when not intended and the most likely time for this to happen when the trigger isn't being manipulated, is during loading or unloading, which is why it is imperative that they ALWAYS be pointed in a safe direction when doing so. This isn't specific to just guns with free floating firing pins, all it takes is a piece of something hard, like maybe a bit of metal from the gun or previous rounds, impacting the primer sufficiently hard.

Remote as that possibility is, this is why we stress the "point in a safe direction" part of the rule rather than relying on a "it's a remote possibility."

 

[Kirk Freeman]

so I have been listening.

No doubt you are very wise.

I made lamb dumplings last night and thought of your wisdom. *gong sounds*

I was a little miffed at first.

Yes, many people are miffed when you tell them that all guns can slam fire, when they see evidence of this fact themselves, everyone always gets upset at the person who is telling them that "all guns can discharge when loading or unloading" as the person who is upset will tell you (over and over again) that "I've been around guns all MY LIFE and I ain't never heared of such a thing." People live in a bubble and if you upset this bubble there will be Internet heck to pay.

I have been telling INGO for years that all guns can discharge upon loading or unloading. Some roll their eyes because it has not happened to them, or they do not check their ejected cartridges in their ARs.

When people do realize how close their weapons are to discharging upon loading, people get miffed. I don't mind as I expect it. It's part of the learning process. Glad to help. *gong sounds*

 

[Hayseed_40]

No doubt you are very wise.

I made lamb dumplings last night and thought of your wisdom. *gong sounds*



Yes, many people are miffed when you tell them that all guns can slam fire, when they see evidence of this fact themselves, everyone always gets upset at the person who is telling them that "all guns can discharge when loading or unloading" as the person who is upset will tell you (over and over again) that "I've been around guns all MY LIFE and I ain't never heared of such a thing." People live in a bubble and if you upset this bubble there will be Internet heck to pay.

I have been telling INGO for years that all guns can discharge upon loading or unloading. Some roll their eyes because it has not happened to them, or they do not check their ejected cartridges in their ARs.

When people do realize how close their weapons are to discharging upon loading, people get miffed. I don't mind as I expect it. It's part of the learning process. Glad to help. *gong sounds*

Not sure but, it does not sound like anyone is mad at you for being so adamant that they do exist. In fact no one has denied they exist - people just seem to be on the side that it is an unlikely event occurring. They do occur and whether it is because of a soft primer or whatever, if it is pointed in a bad direction and kills someone - dead is dead.

Just because someone (myself included) has not seen one from a floating firing pin does make us living in a bubble. Your passion for safety is appreciated. I do not care to read the other threads on this topic even if that does explain background on this topic.

As dangerous as this condition is, why have they not redesigned the rifle to eliminate this potential? Why do agencies that shoot millions of rounds, collectively, per year not change procedures? I mean that in all seriousness.

I have not gone as far as a sand trap (albeit a probable good idea), but at home when I chamber, it is always in a safe direction.

The next thread should be "Which AR mfg is most likely to slam fire?" Now, that will get sand up in the cracks of people.

 

[shibumiseeker]

As dangerous as this condition is, why have they not redesigned the rifle to eliminate this potential?

Because the design as is, is reasonably safe, and the fire control system and bolt and pin and BCG are simple and reliable and easily field repairable. The fact of the matter is that the AR15 system if kept in good maintenance and using quality ammunition, is highly unlikely to experience a problem. Note that again I did not say "never". The best designs out there can have a problem if you have enough guns in the field firing enough ammunition. A one in a billion chance becomes possible when a million guns are firing a thousand rounds of ammo each.

 

[Hayseed_40]

Because the design as is, is reasonably safe, and the fire control system and bolt and pin and BCG are simple and reliable and easily field repairable. The fact of the matter is that the AR15 system if kept in good maintenance and using quality ammunition, is highly unlikely to experience a problem. Note that again I did not say "never". The best designs out there can have a problem if you have enough guns in the field firing enough ammunition. A one in a billion chance becomes possible when a million guns are firing a thousand rounds of ammo each.

So You're Telling Me There's A Chance Sound Clip and Quote

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Not sure but, it does not sound like anyone is mad at you for being so adamant that they do exist.

Oh, no, trust me, when you pop a bubble people get plenty mad.

And by mad I mean shaking with rage when you tell them that all guns can discharge upon being loaded and it is a REAL good idea to have a backstop that stops the bullet rather than loading while pointing at the Interstate.

Miffed or mad, they are both and plenty miffed when I tell them.

In fact no one has denied they exist

Yes, they have and not just at INGO. I have been told to "just load it in the parking lot" at ranges all over this state. People in their bubbles have absolutely no idea what can happen when firearms are loaded or unloaded.

As dangerous as this condition is, why have they not redesigned the rifle to eliminate this potential?

Money.

Why do agencies that shoot millions of rounds, collectively, per year not change procedures?

Money, knowledge, and effort.

The FTU of MOST PDs is seen as a plum gig and thus handed out to political allies rather than if you know anything about firearms. Most (there are many well-known exceptions) do not train their coppers beyond fam fire. Heck, no one had told the officer in the OP that this was transpiring and he asked the Internet if this was normal, not his fault no one had taught him.

As a political position the FTUs often do not have any hours beyond Plainfield with firearms. They simply do not know that this can transpire and that's why you have dead or injured officers, shot up locker rooms and holes in police cars (usually the trunks). (When I was a LEO I saw a big dent in the air compressor at the range when someone slammed fired upon loading).

It takes effort to teach your officers. You have to give a darn about their safety when it is easier just to mouth the words and check the boxes and leave at 4:30.

Further, you need lifestyle changes, to construct sand barrels and fiddle tables for your officers if they need to admin load or unload. This takes time and effort when you can just tell your coppers to "just unload it in the parking lot."

but at home when I chamber, it is always in a safe direction.

Good idea but remember Rule #4 your target and what it beyond it. Perhaps my first month as a LEO I saw what a CKC can do to a 5 year old girl. One short Russian slam fired at the dry wall and hit her in the head on the other side.

Just keep in mind that "safe direction" goes beyond what you are pointing at. If you can, get a sand barrel.

 

[lrahm]

Oh, no, trust me, when you pop a bubble people get plenty mad.

And by mad I mean shaking with rage when you tell them that all guns can discharge upon being loaded and it is a REAL good idea to have a backstop that stops the bullet rather than loading while pointing at the Interstate.

Miffed or mad, they are both and plenty miffed when I tell them.



Yes, they have and not just at INGO. I have been told to "just load it in the parking lot" at ranges all over this state. People in their bubbles have absolutely no idea what can happen when firearms are loaded or unloaded.



Money.



Money, knowledge, and effort.

The FTU of MOST PDs is seen as a plum gig and thus handed out to political allies rather than if you know anything about firearms. Most (there are many well-known exceptions) do not train their coppers beyond fam fire. Heck, no one had told the officer in the OP that this was transpiring and he asked the Internet if this was normal, not his fault no one had taught him.

As a political position the FTUs often do not have any hours beyond Plainfield with firearms. They simply do not know that this can transpire and that's why you have dead or injured officers, shot up locker rooms and holes in police cars (usually the trunks). (When I was a LEO I saw a big dent in the air compressor at the range when someone slammed fired upon loading).

It takes effort to teach your officers. You have to give a darn about their safety when it is easier just to mouth the words and check the boxes and leave at 4:30.

Further, you need lifestyle changes, to construct sand barrels and fiddle tables for your officers if they need to admin load or unload. This takes time and effort when you can just tell your coppers to "just unload it in the parking lot."



Good idea but remember Rule #4 your target and what it beyond it. Perhaps my first month as a LEO I saw what a CKC can do to a 5 year old girl. One short Russian slam fired at the dry wall and hit her in the head on the other side.

Just keep in mind that "safe direction" goes beyond what you are pointing at. If you can, get a sand barrel.

Good info.

 

[Hayseed_40]

Still normal.