Public service announcement: the turn and draw

[parkerj112]

I’m glad others chimed in about the links being backwards. I’ve been doing it right forever, but began second guessing myself and why do the ballet dance...

It was not done accidently on purpose to get people talking about it. I'm not that s-m-u-r-t.

 

[VERT]

Leave it to Jackson and Coach to analyze these things. Kudos boys, kudos.

Yes the difference is competition vs Personal Protection. In competition you know the exact scenario. Personal Protection a person will need to LOOK before drawing the gun. as a right handed shooter it is easier for me to look over my left shoulder. It might also be wise turn the gun away from a potential threat. Hence I favor turning to the left.

While on the subject (I didn’t really watch to analyze the video). It also makes sense to step forward if possible because a person is much more likely to trip if trying to swing their leg backwards. I suppose stepping forward wouldn’t work at the urinal though unless you are swinging the big stick and have more room then the rest of us.

 

[turnandshoot4]

Personal Protection a person will need to LOOK before drawing the gun. as a right handed shooter it is easier for me to look over my left shoulder. It might also be wise turn the gun away from a potential threat.

Came here to say exactly this, glad I read the thread.

Both examples are wrong.

Find it with your eyes first, maybe this isn't a fight you need to be in.

 

[Coach]

Oops yep the titles were wrong. Should be fixed now. Also forgot to click subscribe haha!

Yes competition specific. But not because I've seen it in a match but rather an el pres moving drill. I have seen facing up range starts that I wanted to move to a new position right away. But never to date a surrender up range.

This drill trains a number of things like non line of sight starts, movement to first target and moving the entire time I'm shooting.

I know that production A class I'm not supposed to move and shoot but I say screw that I plan to be production GM so I might as well learn to move and shoot now! Check out the video below I shot three plates on the move when everyone else on my squad posted up and shot at them (not one for one hits) and I was faster because I got closer to where I needed to be after the plates.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAJsJ_Golaw&t=156s

I am not questioning moving or shooting on the move. But most turn and draws do not involve moving directly up range, and no classifiers do. Most turn and draws that I have experienced that require moving require moving off to the left or right from that type of start. Good luck on the Nationals trip. I will see you down there. I am working the Production nationals.

 

[Coach]

I think the many issues and mechanics and techniques for a EDC situation listed here are a lot of over thinking. If the person has solid gunhandling and marksmanship skills and they see a threat they should be able to deal with it. If they don't have the ability to bring the gun up to eye level and hit the threat it won't matter which way they turn, if the draw is disguised or if they parry three attempted gun grabs.

If someone cannot turn either direction without falling on their ass I am not sure I want them drawing a gun in public. If they fall on their ass shoot the guy on the way down. Turning and drawing and moving directly at a threat is not getting off the line of force. Turning and drawing and putting three rounds high center chest may make getting off the line of force moot, or it may not.

 

[deeno3432]

closer you get, the higher the percentage shot.

+1 I agree but nothing is guaranteed

 

[GIJEW]

There is so much context missing if we're not talking about competition.

Is there a direction that would be advantageous to move outside of making the turn? Are there obstacles, people, cover we can move toward or away from to improve our position ?

How close is the person we're presumably turning to shoot? Will turning in the direction of our holstered pistol open us to a stuffed draw, a hand averting our muzzle, or a potential disarm?

Under what circumstances would I need to turn and draw immediately anyway? If I haven't seen it yet, how do I know the pistol is the answer? If we know there's a threat why were we facing the other way in the first place?

GIJew's point about the concealed draw is valid too, and reinforces my thoughts on the potential take away.

Good questions--as usual.
Combat is fluid and which direction to go, is something you might have to decide "on the fly". Being a moving target that changes direction isn't necessarily a bad thing either.

I think your question about the possible hazards of turning your pistol towards the assailant is 'spot on'.

If you're not facing the threat it's one you didn't know about, and then as you asked, how do you know the pistol is (part of) the answer? I think looking over your shoulder as you turn is part of the answer and there are audible clues too. Maybe: "Allahu....(or whatever)"bang-bang-bang or shik-shak..."give it up mofo"?

 

[parkerj112]

I am not questioning moving or shooting on the move. But most turn and draws do not involve moving directly up range, and no classifiers do. Most turn and draws that I have experienced that require moving require moving off to the left or right from that type of start. Good luck on the Nationals trip. I will see you down there. I am working the Production nationals.

Look forward to seeing you at Nats. I am planning on being at Riley Sun. Maybe I'll see you there. FYI the drill was moving down range (after turn) not up, just clearification as to not confuse noobs.

 

[Jackson]

I think the many issues and mechanics and techniques for a EDC situation listed here are a lot of over thinking. If the person has solid gunhandling and marksmanship skills and they see a threat they should be able to deal with it. If they don't have the ability to bring the gun up to eye level and hit the threat it won't matter which way they turn, if the draw is disguised or if they parry three attempted gun grabs.

If someone cannot turn either direction without falling on their ass I am not sure I want them drawing a gun in public. If they fall on their ass shoot the guy on the way down. Turning and drawing and moving directly at a threat is not getting off the line of force. Turning and drawing and putting three rounds high center chest may make getting off the line of force moot, or it may not.

Probably so. Especially since you won't know which was the right answer until you turn around and look anyway. The fundamentals are always going to be the most important. Will there be time or opportunity for anything else? Probably not.

But... Someone posted a video saying X is right and Y is wrong. So I was trying to work out the variables that might make it so. Turns out the context was all wrong.

 

[Coach]

Probably so. Especially since you won't know which was the right answer until you turn around and look anyway. The fundamentals are always going to be the most important. Will there be time or opportunity for anything else? Probably not.

But... Someone posted a video saying X is right and Y is wrong. So I was trying to work out the variables that might make it so. Turns out the context was all wrong.

I have found the time spent pondering all of this worthwhile. The direction you turn is subjective. I know a GM in this state that turns the wrong way most of the time but he is GM, and has done a lot of winning. He also gets DQ'ed every once in a while for breaking the 180. Would he be better off turning the other way? Who are the people that he beat to say so?

I have read somewhere that you can do everything right in a gun fight and still lose, and you can do it all wrong and win. One fight, one stage, one match does not show a pattern. Sometimes luck is a thing.

 

[Jackson]

I have found the time spent pondering all of this worthwhile. The direction you turn is subjective. I know a GM in this state that turns the wrong way most of the time but he is GM, and has done a lot of winning. He also gets DQ'ed every once in a while for breaking the 180. Would he be better off turning the other way? Who are the people that he beat to say so?

I have read somewhere that you can do everything right in a gun fight and still lose, and you can do it all wrong and win. One fight, one stage, one match does not show a pattern. Sometimes luck is a thing.

Luck is always a thing. Or, if you don't like "luck" just think of it as the infinite number of variables you can neither predict nor control that have any impact on the outcome. How those variables fall out is what people see as luck.

There are always more variables you can't control than those you can.

 

[romack991]

I would recommend not thinking of it as correct vs incorrect. There are very few absolutes in USPSA and it pays to have an open mind and be comfortable & confident in a variety of situations. Yes, turning to your strong side is typically faster, but depending on target placement, maybe it isn't. As an example, this stage had an up range, surrender start but targets were positioned where it was advantageous to turn to your weak side. Turning to the strong side required you to pivot 270 degrees compared to 90 degrees to the weak side. A lot of shooters pivoted to there strong side because they thought it was "wrong" to pivot to your weak side or they were afraid of breaking the 180. Even delaying the draw slightly to ensure there is no question on 180 is faster and easier to get the gun on target than trying to pivot 270 degrees in this particular case.
https://youtu.be/--9wBWcuirY?t=3m59s

Whenever making decisions, I think its advantageous to approach it with the goal being faster, more accurate, and/or more consistent rather than deciding what is right or wrong.

 

[parkerj112]

I would recommend not thinking of it as correct vs incorrect. There are very few absolutes in USPSA and it pays to have an open mind and be comfortable & confident in a variety of situations. Yes, turning to your strong side is typically faster, but depending on target placement, maybe it isn't. As an example, this stage had an up range, surrender start but targets were positioned where it was advantageous to turn to your weak side. Turning to the strong side required you to pivot 270 degrees compared to 90 degrees to the weak side. A lot of shooters pivoted to there strong side because they thought it was "wrong" to pivot to your weak side or they were afraid of breaking the 180. Even delaying the draw slightly to ensure there is no question on 180 is faster and easier to get the gun on target than trying to pivot 270 degrees in this particular case.
https://youtu.be/--9wBWcuirY?t=3m59s

Whenever making decisions, I think its advantageous to approach it with the goal being faster, more accurate, and/or more consistent rather than deciding what is right or wrong.

Very true there are no absolutes. Poor choice of words on my part. I have actually done the same in a stage too. Pivoted to the left to get to targets faster. I did delay the draw to likely 20 -30 degrees past 180 just to make sure didnt get dq'd in a major match. Thanks for chiming in.

 

[parkerj112]

Romack very good example of the weak side turn and draw what happed at the end of the stage?

 

[romack991]

Romack very good example of the weak side turn and draw what happed at the end of the stage?

Failed to eject the case and locked the gun up.