Question about Class costs..

[Roadie]

Why is there such a disparity is cost for say, the NRA Basic Pistol courses offered here?

I am not trying to stir the pot, I am genuinely curious how the same course, the same materials, etc etc can be so vastly different in cost..

Thanks..

 

[esrice]

You mean specifically the NRA courses? Or just training courses in general?

 

[Roadie]

You mean specifically the NRA courses? Or just training courses in general?

Well, the NRA Basic Pistol is the one that is the most obvious in this Forum..

 

[GuyRelford]

I've noticed that too. NRA doesn't set prices for its certified instructors, so I think the prices are influenced by: 1) the instructor's overhead costs - courses taught at nicer ranges and classroom facilities often cost more, to the extent that those things affect the instructor's costs, 2) class size - instructors who limit the number of students in a class, and specifically the number of shooters on the firing line per instructor, are likely to cost more, because that limits revenues and increases costs (for assistant certified instructors). At TFT, the ratio of shooters to instructors is always 1 to 1. That is both much safer for everyone involved and a better learning experience, and 3) market - I've noticed that prices tend to vary based on where an instructor is marketing his/her classes.

Having said all that, TFT has just reduced its fees for NRA Basic Pistol.

Just my thoughts!

Guy

 

[Roadie]

Thanks for the response Guy. I guess what I should take out of it is that I am thankful for the lower cost classes so poor people like me can have access to them..

 

[NIFT]

To the above posts, I can add two variables:

1. Range fees can vary substantially, and
2. Some instructors (I am one) include guns and ammunition.

For the NRA Basic Pistol class, I start students with .357 revolvers and ammunition that I have loaded to exceedingly low levels. That way, new shooters don't have to deal with recoil and heavy muzzle blast while trying to learn fundamentals. Semi-auto ammunition cannot be loaded to real low levels.

Ammunition, as we all know so well, is not cheap, and I could price the Basic Pistol class down a fair amount if I did not supply the guns and ammo. However, students would end up paying more, as they would have to buy their own.

For what it's worth.

 

[Jay]

Being retired,I don't have to hold classes, I enjoy it. Except for an occasional thread like this one, I advertise only with a card now and then, or word of mouth. I have a private range, so there are no range fees, and you are not restricted as to movement, position, presentation, or any other shooters. I start with .22LR, and supply firearms and factory ammunition, and shooters will be able to experience calibers up to .45 ACP with factory loads, and get a feel for a variety of handguns and calibers. Included is a half-day "refresher" outing at no charge, whenever a student wants to hold it.

If you're honestly not satisfied, then you don't pay.

 

[Roadie]

Thanks for al the great responses. I appreciate the input.

 

[GuyRelford]

To the above posts, I can add two variables:

1. Range fees can vary substantially, and
2. Some instructors (I am one) include guns and ammunition.

For the NRA Basic Pistol class, I start students with .357 revolvers and ammunition that I have loaded to exceedingly low levels. That way, new shooters don't have to deal with recoil and heavy muzzle blast while trying to learn fundamentals. Semi-auto ammunition cannot be loaded to real low levels.

Ammunition, as we all know so well, is not cheap, and I could price the Basic Pistol class down a fair amount if I did not supply the guns and ammo. However, students would end up paying more, as they would have to buy their own.

For what it's worth.

Great points!! And I really like your approach!!

 

[NIFT]

Great points!! And I really like your approach!!

Thanks, Guy, and wishing you nothing but the best at Eagle Creek!

 

[IndyGunSafety]

To the above posts, I can add two variables:

1. Range fees can vary substantially, and
2. Some instructors (I am one) include guns and ammunition.

For the NRA Basic Pistol class, I start students with .357 revolvers and ammunition that I have loaded to exceedingly low levels. That way, new shooters don't have to deal with recoil and heavy muzzle blast while trying to learn fundamentals. Semi-auto ammunition cannot be loaded to real low levels.

Ammunition, as we all know so well, is not cheap, and I could price the Basic Pistol class down a fair amount if I did not supply the guns and ammo. However, students would end up paying more, as they would have to buy their own.

For what it's worth.

I also include guns and ammunition, and we have a dedicated classroom. All of our students shoot AT LEAST 4 different models of today's most popular handguns in DEFENSE calibers, not just .22lr. The students may also use their own guns, but we require them to also shoot ours so they are well rounded upon course completion. While they are all NRA courses, it's not really an apples to apples comparison. The objectives covered should all be the same, but as NIFT pointed out the costs vary because of facilities, equipment used, and market.

Insurance is another thing. Some instructors don't have it. There are plenty of instructors out there that teach in their (or your!) back yard. I have yet to find an instructor policy that covers me wherever I go without a $150 rider for each additional range beyond the 2 allowed in the policy. God forbid anything bad happen without an insurance policy in place. If somebody offers to come to you because you have a "range" in your back yard, make sure they are insured!

As instructors we all have to decide what our time and experience are worth. Some instructors brag of teaching for 30 years. But if that person only teaches a few courses a year their experience is not even close to those of us who teach several courses a month.

Last but not least, some business strategies call for being a "low cost leader". Their courses/facilities meet the MINIMUM objectives. Then there are those that strive for excellence and continually purchase new equipment and improve facilities for the best educational experience possible. (For example $25 wall posters -vs- $700 projector with various multi-media presentations) I hope this helps.

 

[Roadie]

Makes sense, thanks for taking the time to respond..

 

[kludge]

The biggest difference is we charge less because it's our passion/hobby not our livelihood, in fact I'm almost sure we lose money. I do it because it directly impacts people's opinions of firearms and the 2nd Amendment -- it's my "grass roots" effort. And the club gets a few members a year and a good impression on the community.

As far as I can tell we have the same expenses, except the range fees, that all the other instructors have; the instructors have insurance, the club has insurance, the instructors use their personal firearms and provide all the ammo. We usually have time for everyone to shoot 4-6 different firearms in any type or caliber they want. One instrucutor brings out his .500 Mag and lets anyone who wants to pull the trigger a couple times.

If I had to hazard a guess there's probably $8,000 - $10,000 worth of pistols for the students to choose from at one of our classes. We keep class size to 8 or less and are usually 1-to-1 on the firing line, four at a time, and never more than 1-to-2 if a couple of the instructors can't make it. We shut down the range for our classes and don't have to yell over the gunfire in the next bay.

We reimburse ourselves for class materials and ammo (but not gas or wear and tear on the guns) and give the rest to the club. And because we only have 3-4 pistol classes per summer, that pretty much just covers the insurance for the instructors.

Several times a year people can't make a scheduled class or want a one-on-one or a "couples" class. Same price. Except the club gets the $5 "guest fee" and I get to pay for my gas.

Yes, we have the $25 wall posters, but we also use a projector - paid for out of my own pocket - to present most of the materials, we have nice tables in the classroom and comfortable chairs. Every time we have a class we get comments: "How do you guys do this for $40?"

We also do youth rifle classes and rifle shooting merit badge for Boy Scouts from time to time. Last year we had 17 Sea Cadets. This year we're having ~16 scouts and are making plans for the Sea Cadets again. All at little ($5) to no cost for the kids, but an FoNRA grant paid for rifles, ammo and materials.

So just because I'm teaching ~6 classes a year doesn't mean the students aren't getting a quality class or getting sub-standard equipment.

I will say this... if I were charging for my time I wouldn't do it for less than $200 in my pocket per class after expenses. It takes a lot of work and preparation.

 

[GuyRelford]

I also include guns and ammunition, and we have a dedicated classroom. All of our students shoot AT LEAST 4 different models of today's most popular handguns in DEFENSE calibers, not just .22lr. The students may also use their own guns, but we require them to also shoot ours so they are well rounded upon course completion. While they are all NRA courses, it's not really an apples to apples comparison. The objectives covered should all be the same, but as NIFT pointed out the costs vary because of facilities, equipment used, and market.

Insurance is another thing. Some instructors don't have it. There are plenty of instructors out there that teach in their (or your!) back yard. I have yet to find an instructor policy that covers me wherever I go without a $150 rider for each additional range beyond the 2 allowed in the policy. God forbid anything bad happen without an insurance policy in place. If somebody offers to come to you because you have a "range" in your back yard, make sure they are insured!

As instructors we all have to decide what our time and experience are worth. Some instructors brag of teaching for 30 years. But if that person only teaches a few courses a year their experience is not even close to those of us who teach several courses a month.

Last but not least, some business strategies call for being a "low cost leader". Their courses/facilities meet the MINIMUM objectives. Then there are those that strive for excellence and continually purchase new equipment and improve facilities for the best educational experience possible. (For example $25 wall posters -vs- $700 projector with various multi-media presentations) I hope this helps.

You also make great points - particularly about insurance!!

You run an excellent operation and IndyGunSafety is a credit to our profession!!

Guy

 

[Roadie]

The biggest difference is we charge less because it's our passion/hobby not our livelihood, in fact I'm almost sure we lose money. I do it because it directly impacts people's opinions of firearms and the 2nd Amendment -- it's my "grass roots" effort. And the club gets a few members a year and a good impression on the community.

As far as I can tell we have the same expenses, except the range fees, that all the other instructors have; the instructors have insurance, the club has insurance, the instructors use their personal firearms and provide all the ammo. We usually have time for everyone to shoot 4-6 different firearms in any type or caliber they want. One instrucutor brings out his .500 Mag and lets anyone who wants to pull the trigger a couple times.

If I had to hazard a guess there's probably $8,000 - $10,000 worth of pistols for the students to choose from at one of our classes. We keep class size to 8 or less and are usually 1-to-1 on the firing line, four at a time, and never more than 1-to-2 if a couple of the instructors can't make it. We shut down the range for our classes and don't have to yell over the gunfire in the next bay.

We reimburse ourselves for class materials and ammo (but not gas or wear and tear on the guns) and give the rest to the club. And because we only have 3-4 pistol classes per summer, that pretty much just covers the insurance for the instructors.

Several times a year people can't make a scheduled class or want a one-on-one or a "couples" class. Same price. Except the club gets the $5 "guest fee" and I get to pay for my gas.

Yes, we have the $25 wall posters, but we also use a projector - paid for out of my own pocket - to present most of the materials, we have nice tables in the classroom and comfortable chairs. Every time we have a class we get comments: "How do you guys do this for $40?"

We also do youth rifle classes and rifle shooting merit badge for Boy Scouts from time to time. Last year we had 17 Sea Cadets. This year we're having ~16 scouts and are making plans for the Sea Cadets again. All at little ($5) to no cost for the kids, but an FoNRA grant paid for rifles, ammo and materials.

So just because I'm teaching ~6 classes a year doesn't mean the students aren't getting a quality class or getting sub-standard equipment.

I will say this... if I were charging for my time I wouldn't do it for less than $200 in my pocket per class after expenses. It takes a lot of work and preparation.

As someone who has taken your class, I can recommend it without reservation.

 

[Soonerdoggy]

The bigger the class size, the less some can charge. You want to look at ratios to students when you sign up for training. An NRA basic pistol class is at least an 8hr day, at the very minimum.
1 instructor watching 10 on the firing line? or 1 instructor watching 3 on the firing line.
find out:
What is the rangetime ratio to student?
What is the availability of them providing you quality firearms?
What do YOU need to own or bring?
Do they feed you?
How long do they advise your classroom time is ?
How long do they advise your rangetime is?
Can you find any feedback anywhere on them?
I reload ammo and am an NRA reloading instructor also, but I never provide reloaded ammunition to students when training them. I always ask them to or I provide for sale at cost factory ammunition.

just some thoughts.

Bruce

www.campbellpersonaldefense.com

 

[esrice]

This is a fantastic and informative thread. Thanks for those who took the time to respond to the OP!

 

[Soonerdoggy]

I agree, yea it does....it takes a LOT of time preparation if you care about the quality of the training !

 

[IndyGunSafety]

The biggest difference is we charge less because it's our passion/hobby not our livelihood, in fact I'm almost sure we lose money. I do it because it directly impacts people's opinions of firearms and the 2nd Amendment -- it's my "grass roots" effort. And the club gets a few members a year and a good impression on the community.

As far as I can tell we have the same expenses, except the range fees, that all the other instructors have; the instructors have insurance, the club has insurance, the instructors use their personal firearms and provide all the ammo. We usually have time for everyone to shoot 4-6 different firearms in any type or caliber they want. One instrucutor brings out his .500 Mag and lets anyone who wants to pull the trigger a couple times.

If I had to hazard a guess there's probably $8,000 - $10,000 worth of pistols for the students to choose from at one of our classes. We keep class size to 8 or less and are usually 1-to-1 on the firing line, four at a time, and never more than 1-to-2 if a couple of the instructors can't make it. We shut down the range for our classes and don't have to yell over the gunfire in the next bay.

We reimburse ourselves for class materials and ammo (but not gas or wear and tear on the guns) and give the rest to the club. And because we only have 3-4 pistol classes per summer, that pretty much just covers the insurance for the instructors.

Several times a year people can't make a scheduled class or want a one-on-one or a "couples" class. Same price. Except the club gets the $5 "guest fee" and I get to pay for my gas.

Yes, we have the $25 wall posters, but we also use a projector - paid for out of my own pocket - to present most of the materials, we have nice tables in the classroom and comfortable chairs. Every time we have a class we get comments: "How do you guys do this for $40?"

We also do youth rifle classes and rifle shooting merit badge for Boy Scouts from time to time. Last year we had 17 Sea Cadets. This year we're having ~16 scouts and are making plans for the Sea Cadets again. All at little ($5) to no cost for the kids, but an FoNRA grant paid for rifles, ammo and materials.

So just because I'm teaching ~6 classes a year doesn't mean the students aren't getting a quality class or getting sub-standard equipment.

I will say this... if I were charging for my time I wouldn't do it for less than $200 in my pocket per class after expenses. It takes a lot of work and preparation.

Kludge I hope you (or any other instructor) do not feel like I was singling anyone out. Quite the contrary. I was speaking as to the whole gamut of instructors.

I too teach because I think it's ever so important, not because I need the money. I make my living as a commercial pilot. I started teaching NRA programs after being forced by the State of Ohio to take the Basic Pistol Course in order to get my CCW license there. Having been a lifelong sportsman, competitive shooter, and in the Army Reserve I huffed and puffed over having to take the course. What were these people going to teach me? Well, the whole class I sat there saying to myself: "WOW... I didn't know that!" I realized just how important this education is, and that there had to be thousands of people just like me who thought they knew something about firearms, marksmanship and safety. I added the NRA Basic Pistol Course to my CPR/First Aid training center and have been growing ever since. I had a nice place to teach in Cleveland. When I moved back here to Indy I taught in my living room in a rented house! I'd move the furniture into the dining room and set up little tables and chairs in the living room and had all the posters on the wall. We did our shooting at Eagle Creek.

Well here we are years later and my "make a difference" hobby has turned into a corporation with shareholders, a board of directors, tens of thousands in assets and everything as S-corporation brings with it. All of this requires time and money so that means charging higher prices and hiring people to get the job done. But it also means I get to do things as far as facilities, equipment and instructors that make my "more expensive" course a great value.

When I was first starting out I would call my competitors now and then to see what they were up to. I found several that were charging $40, sending you some videos, the test and the book, and then had you come in for 2 hours of classroom and and hour or two of range time! We all know this is NOT up to NRA standards. But people like this are out there.

We all started as instructors from humble beginnings. Some will stay there out of necessity or desire and provide terrific programs that truly make a difference. Some will be able to take it farther and do the same.

Not only do I enjoy being a teacher, I enjoy employing others thus making a difference in their lives as well, and being a small part of our local economy.

Believe me, I often wish I was still teaching in my living room. And I still have the posters on the wall in my classroom! (Otherwise, no matter how many times I go over it, they still get that question about sight adjustment wrong! )

Kludge, there is nothing wrong with getting paid for your passion. I pay my instructors $250 for a basic class. (Last year it was $160 a class. The year before $100.) The only expenses they have are $400 a year for their insurance and a membership at Atlanta so they can use the range and then whatever their gas costs. I provide the guns, ammo... everything. It sounds like you have a good thing going and are doing exactly what you want. But if you ever want to be part of something different please let me know. I am ALWAYS looking for experienced and respected instructors like yourself, TFT, or Nift.

I'm not posting this to be better than anyone. I simply want to offer the best product I can without going broke and taking anyone down with me. I'm posting so the OP realizes the differences in cost.

PS: One doesn't become a Training Counselor to make money. I'm training my own competition. But it's for the greater good. I didn't see that when I was struggling for market share. Now that we have a firm foundation in the community I can go on to the next step: Training the next generation of instructors.

 

[kludge]

Indy, no offense taken, and no I didn't feel singled out. Likewise I know a couple instructors that I wouldn't want in my classroom at any price. As for the profit side of things, being that it's a not-for-profit club operation we would have a hard time doing for-profit activities. We just saw a need in our club and community and have the facilities, and we survive mostly by referral. Plus I also volunteer as a boy scout leader and there is zero time left to do any bookkeeping or paperwork for any kind of side business.