Range time w/9mms: CZ Shadow 2, Sig 365, Glock 26 and Shield MP

[doddg]

So quick questions, and no judgement, just curiosity. How many rounds (roughly, not asking for an exact count) were through the 365 before introducing the Fiocchi ammo? Did you happen to clean and lubricate the 365 at any time (either before first shooting, before or after the initial issues with the Fiocchi?)
Again, just curious as to break in, etc before and after the issues?

1. I put only 2 mags through it right out of the box using Blazer Brass (I thought I'd put 6 mags through, but no, checking my records, b/c I was checking out a CZ Rami I'd bought the same day.
2. Then, on Sunday, Aug. 12 is when I had all those FTE with the Fiocchi but not with the Blazer Brass.
3. Then today, Monday, Aug. 13 I had no issue with 4 kinds of ammo and I used more Fiocchi that anything to see it is would FTE again, but no????
4. I have not cleaned it at all, being a believer that it should come from the factory ready for the range.
5. No cleaning or lubing at all and it has been 8 mags/80 rounds so far.
6. I know that I'm being naive about my trust in the manufacturer to make a gun ready to work: it's not a car.

 

[mcapo]

4. I have not cleaned it at all, being a believer that it should come from the factory ready for the range.
5. No cleaning or lubing at all and it has been 8 mags/80 rounds so far.
6. I know that I'm being naive about my trust in the manufacturer to make a gun ready to work: it's not a car.

I’m not trying to be a smart a$$ but Page 20 of the P365 owners manual.

4.1 Preparation Instructions
Prior to firing the pistol for the first time, we strongly suggest you perform an initial cleaning and lubrication of the pistol once it is unpacked. Any fouling present will have been from final range firing at the factory prior to shipping.
Please refer to Section 8.0 for instructions pertaining to cleaning the pistol.
If you have the pistol and ammunition, and have read and understood all of the safety instructions, you are now ready to use the pistol.

 

[doddg]

I’m not trying to be a smart a$$ but Page 20 of the P365 owners manual.

4.1 Preparation Instructions
Prior to firing the pistol for the first time, we strongly suggest you perform an initial cleaning and lubrication of the pistol once it is unpacked. Any fouling present will have been from final range firing at the factory prior to shipping.
Please refer to Section 8.0 for instructions pertaining to cleaning the pistol.
If you have the pistol and ammunition, and have read and understood all of the safety instructions, you are now ready to use the pistol.

1. When you're right: you're right!
2. I never dreamed that a gun wouldn't come ready to go and be at optimal condition new from the factory.
3. I knew that some guys did that but I thought they were just going the extra mile.
4.
5. It's a good thing I usually buy used guns where the guys have cleaned and lubed them. I always asked about that.
6. Now I'm wondering what damage I've done to the few guns I have bought new, since I took them out of the box and shot them. (S/W Compact .22LR, Bersa Thunder .22LR, Ruger GP100 .22LR revolver and Sig Sauer 365.

 

[STEEL CORE]

So which of the four will be in the classifieds section this evening, and have you sold one yet that you wished you would have kept?

 

[doddg]

So which of the four will be in the classifieds section this evening, and have you sold one yet that you wished you would have kept?

1. I will be selling the Shield MP 9 that fits so well in my hand, that I love, which is what my intention was when I bought the Sig 365.
2. I bought it off a member here, and have since bought 4 mags to go with it, and a holster that I ordered which I don't know whether I can cancel or not.
3. I might get around to selling the Glock 26 eventually, a harder one for me to give up, and it has the usual extra mags and holster, as well.
4. This is why I hate to order ancillary items for a gun since I don't know how long I'll keep one.
5. I believe the CZ Shadow 2 is a keeper, but it won't be a CC, so a holster is not germaine, and it came with 3 mags already.
6. My CC Smith snubbie is a keeper as well, and I've never given a thought to selling it b/c of its utility and non-romantic nature: a tool.
7. So far there is no regrets about selling a gun, but I did love both of the CZs that I had and sold moving up the CZ ladder: SP 01 Tactical and the 75 Omega, but they were replaced with the Shadow 2, but I have wondered if I should have kept the 75 Omega just b/c.

 

[mcapo]

6. Now I'm wondering...

Probably none in just a handful of rounds.

Your car analogy is correct in many regards; you just missed a few steps.

Wasn't that long ago that a new motor quickly had an oil change and a break-in period. Some guns have VERY specific break-in procedures (check out the process for a Les Baer!).

Back to the car though; the manufacturer will give a new car a quick test before heading out the door. The dealership will prep the car for delivery to the customer. During its ownership period, the owner will perform regular maintenance which includes cleaning and lubrication along with replacement of worn or broken parts. A firearm isn't any different. They need cleaning and lubrication along with replacement of worn or broken parts. A gun is just more likely to maim or kill you or someone nearby in the event of a catastrophic failure than a poorly maintained car.

Some people will clean after every range trip. Some people will run and run them. I am someplace in the middle. Guns that just come out of the safe once in while get a safety check and a lube BEFORE and AFTER a range trip. The guns that I use regularly get cleaned/lubed as conditions require and/or time allows though I tend to keep things clean and well lubed.

(insert lube jokes here)

 

[Hop]

1. I will be selling the Shield MP 9 that fits so well in my hand, that I love, which is what my intention was when I bought the Sig 365.

Noooo, not the Shield! Ban him, ban him now!

 

[STEEL CORE]

Nice deal on the Shield, I carry a Glock 22/27 combo but have and shoot others.
Maybe someday you find the perfect gun.

 

[doddg]

Nice deal on the Shield, I carry a Glock 22/27 combo but have and shoot others.
Maybe someday you find the perfect gun.

1. The "perfect gun" will be always in flux.
2. The perfect gun 1 yr. will be replaced by a different perfect gun in another year.
3. That is b/c I'm not man enough to spend the money for the perfect gun, I have to grow into it dollar by dollar.

 

[NHT3]

1. The "perfect gun" will be always in flux.
2. The perfect gun 1 yr. will be replaced by a different perfect gun in another year.
3. That is b/c I'm not man enough to spend the money for the perfect gun, I have to grow into it dollar by dollar.

As your experience and skill level advances your idea of what a "perfect gun" is will change. I won't name names but I know a number of people that have been all the way up the ladder meaning Nighthawk, Wilson, Hi end Sigs and CZs. They still own and appreciate the "good stuff" but ended up with an M&P or Glock for their EDC. I carry what I know I can be accurate with, is reliable and I can replace easily if I am forced to give it up because of a self defense encounter. Everyone I know that trains on a regular basis has come to this conclusion. Hang in there and enjoy the ride.

[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member / [/FONT]Basic Pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] / RSO[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]"Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard" [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Unnamed Navy Seal[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]“Ego is the reason many men do not shoot competition. They don't want to suck in public” [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Aron Bright[/FONT]

 

[lovemachine]

IMHO, our of the guns listed in your thread, the G26 and the Shield are your best carry guns. The others are just nice range guns.

You can’t beat the reliability of the G26 and the Shield.

 

[Trigger Time]

I think not trusting a gun if it fails on one round is total horse ****. **** happens. Do you have the skills to clear a malfunction and quickly get your gun back into the fight? Or are you gonna just stand there with a dumb look on your face while the other guy ventilates you?
Was it the mag? Was it the ammo? Was it the gun? Was it shooter error? Who knows but one malfunction so you axe a gun because you dont trust it anymore is what amatures do. Thats like having a spark plug fail in your car so you sell the car because you never trust the car again.
These threads are pure ****ing entertainment. I havent been this amuzed in a while. Better than the circus.

 

[Trigger Time]

IMHO, our of the guns listed in your thread, the G26 and the Shield are your best carry guns. The others are just nice range guns.

You can’t beat the reliability of the G26 and the Shield.

Exactly

 

[Trigger Time]

1. The "perfect gun" will be always in flux.
2. The perfect gun 1 yr. will be replaced by a different perfect gun in another year.
3. That is b/c I'm not man enough to spend the money for the perfect gun, I have to grow into it dollar by dollar.

You dont trust or know what the perfect gun is because you havent went through enough training and practice with one gun to know you can properly rely on it and operate it in your sleep. IMO
You seem to focus more on accuracy than anything more important. And you are very accurate. I can train a monkey to shoot a gun accurately and im no trainer. Actualy give a monkey enough ammo and ZERO instruction and he WILL figure out how to be accurate. That doesn't mean anything unless you want to be a target shooter. Do you? That's fine if u do. But if you want to use your gun for self defense also then you need to pick one platform and become proficient with it. And proficient with gun handling skills. Then you'll be able to pick up about any gun even one you've never shot before and be accurate.
I'm not saying dont have fun guns for the range, but you are confusing yourself.
Listen to me, dont listen to me. Hate me, like me. I dont care. I'm giving you my observations and they are based on my experiences.

 

[doddg]

As your experience and skill level advances your idea of what a "perfect gun" is will change. I won't name names but I know a number of people that have been all the way up the ladder meaning Nighthawk, Wilson, Hi end Sigs and CZs. They still own and appreciate the "good stuff" but ended up with an M&P or Glock for their EDC. I carry what I know I can be accurate with, is reliable and I can replace easily if I am forced to give it up because of a self defense encounter. Everyone I know that trains on a regular basis has come to this conclusion. Hang in there and enjoy the ride.
[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member / [/FONT]Basic Pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] / RSO[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]"Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard" [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Unnamed Navy Seal[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]“Ego is the reason many men do not shoot competition. They don't want to suck in public” [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Aron Bright[/FONT]

1. Appreciate your comments and insight and see the veracity of what you're saying.
2. By reading on these threads I have been guided to pursue certain guns (Glock 26 and Shield M/P 9 and Sig 365).
3. I am so enjoying "the ride." It has brought immense pleasure to me especially since my arthritis is curtailing what used to be an active lifestyle (I can't even ride a MC anymore after 4 decades and over 20 MCs).
4. Appreciate you encouragement! And, hope some day, to get some training from you!

IMHO, our of the guns listed in your thread, the G26 and the Shield are your best carry guns. The others are just nice range guns.

5. Agreed, everything else is just .22LR for the range.

You can’t beat the reliability of the G26 and the Shield.

6. That's why I got them, through direction here!

I think not trusting a gun if it fails on one round is total horse ****. **** happens. Do you have the skills to clear a malfunction and quickly get your gun back into the fight? Or are you gonna just stand there with a dumb look on your face while the other guy ventilates you?
Was it the mag? Was it the ammo? Was it the gun? Was it shooter error? Who knows but one malfunction so you axe a gun because you dont trust it anymore is what amatures do. Thats like having a spark plug fail in your car so you sell the car because you never trust the car again.
These threads are pure ****ing entertainment. I havent been this amuzed in a while. Better than the circus.

7. I am an amateur.
8. This is why a CC a revolver, and I have the trust to carry my Glock 26 and Shield, and feel like I will build my trust back up with the Sig 365 b/c of the circumstances I've elaborated: but it will take time.
9. Since we are being free with opinions, I don't think there is an analogy between I gun not working and therefore getting shot while working the issue out even with 1, 2, 3, 4 spark plugs not working in a car. Been there, done that in a car with the plug wires arcing over to the engine: I lived.
10. I don't mind your tough input: it is a quick way to learn I'm an idiot, or in this case: a clown.

You dont trust or know what the perfect gun is because you havent went through enough training and practice with one gun to know you can properly rely on it and operate it in your sleep. IMO

11. I will never have gone through enough training and practice to suit others; I've learned to live with that, and enjoy myself anyway.
12. I learned in an online car club that no matter what you do you will be critiqued. With me, it was driving my roadster during the winter: outrageous behavior for a rear wheel "garage queen." (I grew up learning to drive with rear wheel drive like most my age)
13. Meanwhile, after most have sold their cars and moved on: I'm still driving mine through the winter (yes, I have dedicated narrower rims and the best snow tires: in some places, like with guns and snow tires, you don't cut corners).

You seem to focus more on accuracy than anything more important. And you are very accurate. I can train a monkey to shoot a gun accurately and im no trainer. Actualy give a monkey enough ammo and ZERO instruction and he WILL figure out how to be accurate. That doesn't mean anything unless you want to be a target shooter. Do you? That's fine if u do. But if you want to use your gun for self defense also then you need to pick one platform and become proficient with it. And proficient with gun handling skills. Then you'll be able to pick up about any gun even one you've never shot before and be accurate.
I'm not saying dont have fun guns for the range, but you are confusing yourself.
Listen to me, dont listen to me. Hate me, like me. I dont care. I'm giving you my observations and they are based on my experiences.

14. I'm depressed. I think I'll go out and buy a gun.
15. Wow! That was some reality feedback!
16. I do appreciate you observations based on your experience: that's why I read here everyday and enjoy so many who give it to me straight.
17. I'm sure many will applaud your "spanking" and I can take it.
18. I don't really believe you "don't care," or you wouldn't take the time to address my idiosyncrasies. I know I'm eclectic, and a half-a-bubble off. I know I'll never be "normal" and always be an outlier: it comes by being raised by wolves in the woods.
19. Despite that, I have fun and am trying to enjoy the days here with my "shooting hobby," b/c I feel the clock ticking in every area of my life. I don't think this will continue on and on. There will be a stopping point and it will be over. Maybe I say that b/c one of our teachers just died last night and mortality is on my mind.

 

[NHT3]

I think not trusting a gun if it fails on one round is total horse ****. **** happens. Do you have the skills to clear a malfunction and quickly get your gun back into the fight? Or are you gonna just stand there with a dumb look on your face while the other guy ventilates you?
Was it the mag? Was it the ammo? Was it the gun? Was it shooter error? Who knows but one malfunction so you axe a gun because you dont trust it anymore is what amatures do. Thats like having a spark plug fail in your car so you sell the car because you never trust the car again.
These threads are pure ****ing entertainment. I havent been this amuzed in a while. Better than the circus.

Speaking of entertainment LOL. Next time don't hold back TT, tell us what you really think. I'm still chuckling.
You're right, one malfunction means NOTHING. I can't remember the last time I had a malfunction that I could attribute without question to the pistol. I would estimate 70% of the time magazines and ammo are the culprits leaving about 29% operator error and 1% with the firearm. Of course I'm talking about mainstream firearms not the "Jennings" class of pistols.
Nothing like an entertaining thread on INGO on a rainy day.
doddg, I'm told (by rhino) that your safety procedures are pretty good. If you manage to make it to one of the Carry gun matches I think you will learn very quickly how difficult it is to be reasonably quick and accurate with your S&W.. You are going to find the Shield or G-26 will serve you much better as an EDC.. Just my .02
[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member / [/FONT]Basic Pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] / RSO[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]"Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard" [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Unnamed Navy Seal[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]“Ego is the reason many men do not shoot competition. They don't want to suck in public” [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Aron Bright[/FONT]

 

[doddg]

doddg, I'm told (by rhino) that your safety procedures are pretty good. If you manage to make it to one of the Carry gun matches I think you will learn very quickly how difficult it is to be reasonably quick and accurate with your S&W.. You are going to find the Shield or G-26 will serve you much better as an EDC.. Just my .02
[FONT=&amp]
1. I think you meant to say, "[/FONT]how difficult it is to be reasonably quick and accurate with your Sig Sauer 365..." since you refer to the "Shield or G-26" in your next sentence as being a "much better as a EDC.."
[FONT=&amp]2. I am not understanding your point of why the Sig is not on the list with the Shield and G26 for an EDC: sorry to be so dull.
3. I get the "Shield or G-26" being a "much better as an EDC" and appreciate such insights, but what is there about the Sig Sauer that excludes it being fairly the same as the Shield (if you get the 12 round mag, which I ordered from Gun Mag Warehouse just this evening).
4. When I first shot the Sig 365 that belonged to a friend (who uses it as a daily CC and it had the 12 rounder in it), I was amazed at its accuracy, doing as well as my CZ Tactical and CZ Omega at 20' and 30' feet, which I posted, and better than the Shield or G26.
[/FONT]

 

[NHT3]

doddg, I'm told (by rhino) that your safety procedures are pretty good. If you manage to make it to one of the Carry gun matches I think you will learn very quickly how difficult it is to be reasonably quick and accurate with your S&W.. You are going to find the Shield or G-26 will serve you much better as an EDC.. Just my .02
[FONT=&amp]
1. I think you meant to say, "[/FONT]how difficult it is to be reasonably quick and accurate with your Sig Sauer 365..." since you refer to the "Shield or G-26" in your next sentence as being a "much better as a EDC.."
[FONT=&amp]2. I am not understanding your point of why the Sig is not on the list with the Shield and G26 for an EDC: sorry to be so dull.
3. I get the "Shield or G-26" being a "much better as an EDC" and appreciate such insights, but what is there about the Sig Sauer that excludes it being fairly the same as the Shield (if you get the 12 round mag, which I ordered from Gun Mag Warehouse just this evening).
4. When I first shot the Sig 365 that belonged to a friend (who uses it as a daily CC and it had the 12 rounder in it), I was amazed at its accuracy, doing as well as my CZ Tactical and CZ Omega at 20' and 30' feet, which I posted, and better than the Shield or G26.
[/FONT]

I meant exactly what I said, you said in line 8 above that your CC is currently a revolver. Maybe I should have said any semi auto compared to a revolver because the trigger and generally the sights are much better on the semi autos.
Something I've learned from years of shooting and teaching. Three things you can spend money on that will improve your potential for accuracy. First and most important is simply a reliable firearm, second is sights that you see well and acquire quickly and third is a good trigger. Most CC revolvers are sunbbies and lacking two of the three being decent trigger and good sights. I've observed hundreds of people at the range with revolvers and I can honestly say I've only seen 2 people with revolvers that were what I would consider practiced and accurate. They both love to shoot revolvers and probably put more rounds down range in a month than most people shoot in years.
Do what you need to do to get over the issue with the 365. Chances are very good there is nothing wrong with it. I had an issue with my 22TCM a while back, worked well one time at the range and malfunctioned the next time. I realized I was riding the slide with my thumb causing the problem and it hasn't malfunctioned since. IMHO the 365 is as good as you're going to get in a small 9MM.
[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member / [/FONT]Basic Pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] / RSO[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]"Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard" [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Unnamed Navy Seal[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]“Ego is the reason many men do not shoot competition. They don't want to suck in public” [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Aron Bright[/FONT]

 

[Hop]

Capacity is the only problem I have with a revolver as a CC. If/when I carry one it's a 6 shot with a spare speedloader. The LCR .327 6 shot was really intended for my daughter but she's got a Walther CCP now. Revolvers are just too thick for my liking so I stick to carrying one of my Shields. I rarely carry my full size nor compacts anymore.

Your Sig 365 is still new. There's still a few issues popping up on the interwebs about them; trigger spring & firing pins. Time will tell. The Glock & S&W have a longer, more confidence inspiring history.

Keep carrying and keep taking classes. As much as INGO likes to bark at you we enjoy the stories.

 

[doddg]

I meant exactly what I said, you said in line 8 above that your CC is currently a revolver. Maybe I should have said any semi auto compared to a revolver because the trigger and generally the sights are much better on the semi autos.


1. Ah, got it! (don’t know how to highlight this so I can make it bold).



Something I've learned from years of shooting and teaching. Three things you can spend money on that will improve your potential for accuracy. First and most important is simply a reliable firearm, second is sights that you see well and acquire quickly and third is a good trigger. Most CC revolvers are sunbbies and lacking two of the three being decent trigger and good sights. I've observed hundreds of people at the range with revolvers and I can honestly say I've only seen 2 people with revolvers that were what I would consider practiced and accurate. They both love to shoot revolvers and probably put more rounds down range in a month than most people shoot in years.
Do what you need to do to get over the issue with the 365. Chances are very good there is nothing wrong with it.


2. Agreed! Reliability is not an issue w/365. I know it wasn’t my thumb that got in the way 10 times in a row: truly puzzling, especially the next day using the same ammo from the same shipment: baffling.
3. Going to range this pm and I look forward to ensuing results.



I had an issue with my 22TCM a while back, worked well one time at the range and malfunctioned the next time. I realized I was riding the slide with my thumb causing the problem and it hasn't malfunctioned since. IMHO the 365 is as good as you're going to get in a small 9MM.


4. That’s why I researched and paid $150 + $50/12 round Sig mag= $200 more than Shield. I believe you!

Capacity is the only problem I have with a revolver as a CC. If/when I carry one it's a 6 shot with a spare speedloader. The LCR .327 6 shot was really intended for my daughter but she's got a Walther CCP now. Revolvers are just too thick for my liking so I stick to carrying one of my Shields. I rarely carry my full size nor compacts anymore.
Your Sig 365 is still new. There's still a few issues popping up on the interwebs about them; trigger spring & firing pins. Time will tell. The Glock & S&W have a longer, more confidence inspiring history.


5. I will be slow to divest the G26, and I can always get another Shield,
but if the Sig has issues I’ll just send it in to them.



Keep carrying and keep taking classes. As much as INGO likes to bark at you we enjoy the stories.

6. “bark at you”: that was really funny! I openly laughed out at that. The best humor always has that element of truth in it!
7. I do keep CCing and have another class in Nov.
8. Bought several holsters lately and even returned 2 to get better ones after being “barked” at about my choices.
9. Education: priceless!