Re-visting BUG vs Spare Ammo...experiment

[GONZO!!!]

Hi Gang...

2 things...

1) if this should be in another forum, Admin please move it at your discretion

2) I know this is a re-hash of sorts, but I never really read through the other threads in their entirety.


Okay...so some friends and I were talking about threads where they discussed the speed of BUG vs spare ammo and reloads....after much heated debate, spilled coffee, cuss words, discussing the questionable canine paternal heritage, etc...we decided on an experiment.

I would be the standard 1911 Government model .45 with an 8 rounds spare magazine in the 9 O'Clock position...my friend "G" who is 6'6" and 240 would have his XD .45 and a back up gun in whatever position of concealed carry...my friend "M" who is 5'10 and 225lbs, would have a 9mm and a back up gun in whatever fashion of CC he chose.

We used my compact timer as the agreed upon method to determine initial speed.

standing side-by-side with a standard USPSA target 10 yards down range, we stood in our favorite "combat pistol stance" and held still as if we had just shot a round and realized that we were empty. With the timer set at "Random", we stood watching our sights and waiting for the beep.

At the beep, each of us went for our second option.

Several things to note here....

1) due to my years of self-defense and carrying a 1911 (since 1980)...and years of USPSA/IDPA/Action Shooting events, I easily bested both of them. I successfully relaoded and fired a single shot long before they were able to draw their back up and fire a single shot.

2) We had them try pocekt draw, behind the hip, ankle holster (the slowest of all by the way), cross draw from the belt. Only did the cross draw seem to offer the slightest bit of speed, but still not able to get close to my reloads. And yes, we all hit "A" or solid "C" zone hits with the reload or BUGs.

3) for spit and giggles, we decided that they would reload and I would draw a BUG. Pocket was out due to the type of pants I was wearing. so I tried cross draw and behind the hip. Again, the cross draw offered a better speed advantage and I was able to beat them once over their reload.

then questions began to arise as we sat on the tailgate....

Question: so do we (any of those professing to carry BUGs) have it set up as an ambidextrious BUG...meaning you are drawing with your left hand and engaging with the left?

Question: if we stay using our dominate hand, what do we do with our high dollar main gun, holster it, throw it to the side like in a John Woo film, hold it in our off-hand while we shoot our BUG with our dominate hand?

There were other questions and notes, but I dont have my little notebook with me.


We also realized that unless the BUG is an ultra-light compact, more ammo for the main pistol can be carried on one's self with less bulk, definately less weight ...and..there is continuity in one's SHTF muscle memory response in a shooting situation.

So...in our little world of back yard myth-busting experiments...RELOADS win every time ...unless the person drawing the BUG is so highly skilled and has a high-degree of tactical SHTF muscle memory training.

RELOADS IT IS!!!

Anyone else run these experiments at home? What did you come up with..?

GONZO!!!

 

[shibumiseeker]

RELOADS IT IS!!!

Anyone else run these experiments at home? What did you come up with..?

GONZO!!!

Thanks for posting the results of your competition, that was a fun read :-)

I don't carry a BUG to avoid a reload, I carry one for if I:

Lose my primary (disarmed).
My primary fails.
I have a brain fart and walk out of the house without my primary.
I have to go somewhere where I need to be ultra discreet.

But I have run my shot timer to see how long it took to deploy both my BUG and my deep concealment gun and both are way, way longer than it takes me to do a tactical reload.

 

[David D]

I tried to do the same thing at home, but my wife said that if I shoot any more of her good china in the Dining Room, I'm in trouble...

Seriously, thanks for the post. I really would have thought that the BUG would have been faster than reloads.

 

[rhino]

It's good to see someone testing this with a time.

I would recommend that you repeat it, but compare the times for the same shooter, reload vs. secondary weapon. Comparing shooter against shooter includes way too many variables.

Then you need to account for variables with the same shooter. Someone who has practiced speed reloads for years, but has never drawn a second gun (and vice versa) is obviously going to skew the results.

 

[yellowhousejake]

1) Drop the expensive high dollar gun, really, would you think about saving your duracoat over your life? Maybe a camp chair to catch it for the test, I'd like to know the speed difference.

2) What if the primary was a revolver? I know that my choice of revolver brings a limited reload speed, how much?

3) Did you have the slide at lock?

Thanks, a good report.

YHJ

 

[rockhopper46038]

What shibumiseeker said.

I carry a reload and the BUG.

 

[rhino]

1) Drop the expensive high dollar gun, really, would you think about saving your duracoat over your life? Maybe a camp chair to catch it for the test, I'd like to know the speed difference.

I've seen people hesitate to drop a dead gun during training (with slide locked back) because they didn't want to damage it. I remain unconvinced that they would behave differently during a tense social encounter.

I've dropped dead 1911s and paras on rocks and in sand a lot of times during drills. The first few times I hesitated because it just wasn't something I'd ever considered doing and some instructors won't allow it in their classes. Once recently I hesitated (with a Glock) during a demo because the thought flashed through my mind that some of the students might freak out if they were not accustomed to seeing that practice.

 

[yellowhousejake]

I won't drop my revolver on purpose knowing it will hit rocks and stones. I've heard of classes where they make you do it. It's a quality tool and I my head says you do not treat a tool like that. I would drop it on a mat or grass for the purpose of the experiment though.

I would think I would not hesitate in real life if needed. I've tossed more expensive equipment when a safety situation arose. But we never really know.

YHJ

 

[cedartop]

Hi Gang...

.

Question: so do we (any of those professing to carry BUGs) have it set up as an ambidextrious BUG...meaning you are drawing with your left hand and engaging with the left?

For me it is the other way around (lefty), but I don't carry a BUG. If I am carrying two guns the second is just that, a second mid size fighting pistol and is worn mirrored of my primary. Yes, I would draw and shot it with my right hand. This is faster than a reload, but only if it is highly practiced.

Question: if we stay using our dominate hand, what do we do with our high dollar main gun, holster it, throw it to the side like in a John Woo film, hold it in our off-hand while we shoot our BUG with our dominate hand?

It depends. I would have no problem tossing aside my first gun if that is what the situation called for. I will say this though, if you can't do it in practice, you won't do it in real life.

There were other questions and notes, but I dont have my little notebook with me.


We also realized that unless the BUG is an ultra-light compact, more ammo for the main pistol can be carried on one's self with less bulk, definately less weight ...and..there is continuity in one's SHTF muscle memory response in a shooting situation.

So...in our little world of back yard myth-busting experiments...RELOADS win every time ...unless the person drawing the BUG is so highly skilled and has a high-degree of tactical SHTF muscle memory training.

RELOADS IT IS!!!

Anyone else run these experiments at home? What did you come up with..?

GONZO!!!

For the record, I am more in the reload camp as well, but not because I think it is better, just easier for me to carry.

 

[rhino]

I won't drop my revolver on purpose knowing it will hit rocks and stones. I've heard of classes where they make you do it. It's a quality tool and I my head says you do not treat a tool like that. I would drop it on a mat or grass for the purpose of the experiment though.

I would think I would not hesitate in real life if needed. I've tossed more expensive equipment when a safety situation arose. But we never really know.

YHJ

Just for consideration: real life is probably a bad time to make a decision like that. If you think you'll drop it in order to access your send gun, it makes sense to practice that way.

 

[GONZO!!!]

Great responses....btw. I did perform reload from slide lock ...the time difference FOR ME was so small that I didn't feel it made any difference in the results...but again, I live and breathe my 1911.

I may, upon warm sprin weather attempt this again...however next time...I will have a call out from INGOers to come out and participate in the experiment.

Lets do a real test with variables and I wil write the article for publication. I will endorse it as a INGO experiment

 

[Spike_351]

Hi Gang...

2 things...

1) if this should be in another forum, Admin please move it at your discretion

2) I know this is a re-hash of sorts, but I never really read through the other threads in their entirety.


Okay...so some friends and I were talking about threads where they discussed the speed of BUG vs spare ammo and reloads....after much heated debate, spilled coffee, cuss words, discussing the questionable canine paternal heritage, etc...we decided on an experiment.

I would be the standard 1911 Government model .45 with an 8 rounds spare magazine in the 9 O'Clock position...my friend "G" who is 6'6" and 240 would have his XD .45 and a back up gun in whatever position of concealed carry...my friend "M" who is 5'10 and 225lbs, would have a 9mm and a back up gun in whatever fashion of CC he chose.

We used my compact timer as the agreed upon method to determine initial speed.

standing side-by-side with a standard USPSA target 10 yards down range, we stood in our favorite "combat pistol stance" and held still as if we had just shot a round and realized that we were empty. With the timer set at "Random", we stood watching our sights and waiting for the beep.

At the beep, each of us went for our second option.

Several things to note here....

1) due to my years of self-defense and carrying a 1911 (since 1980)...and years of USPSA/IDPA/Action Shooting events, I easily bested both of them. I successfully relaoded and fired a single shot long before they were able to draw their back up and fire a single shot.

2) We had them try pocekt draw, behind the hip, ankle holster (the slowest of all by the way), cross draw from the belt. Only did the cross draw seem to offer the slightest bit of speed, but still not able to get close to my reloads. And yes, we all hit "A" or solid "C" zone hits with the reload or BUGs.

3) for spit and giggles, we decided that they would reload and I would draw a BUG. Pocket was out due to the type of pants I was wearing. so I tried cross draw and behind the hip. Again, the cross draw offered a better speed advantage and I was able to beat them once over their reload.

then questions began to arise as we sat on the tailgate....

Question: so do we (any of those professing to carry BUGs) have it set up as an ambidextrious BUG...meaning you are drawing with your left hand and engaging with the left?

Question: if we stay using our dominate hand, what do we do with our high dollar main gun, holster it, throw it to the side like in a John Woo film, hold it in our off-hand while we shoot our BUG with our dominate hand?

There were other questions and notes, but I dont have my little notebook with me.


We also realized that unless the BUG is an ultra-light compact, more ammo for the main pistol can be carried on one's self with less bulk, definately less weight ...and..there is continuity in one's SHTF muscle memory response in a shooting situation.

So...in our little world of back yard myth-busting experiments...RELOADS win every time ...unless the person drawing the BUG is so highly skilled and has a high-degree of tactical SHTF muscle memory training.

RELOADS IT IS!!!

Anyone else run these experiments at home? What did you come up with..?

GONZO!!!

Ok, so you all stood side by side with no barrier between you and your two friends, and proceeded to "cross draw" now please correct me if I am wrong or taken anything out of context but....wouldn't you have muzzle swept them with a loaded firearm during the cross draw? Seems a little dangerous to me just to test a theory or prove a point. But once again I don't mean to sound rude but I am curious.

 

[GONZO!!!]

great question....I should clarify....

only one performed cross draw at a time, and they were placed at the end of the line so that their cross draw was to the outside of the entire group. two of us are right handed and one was left handed. It was all done safely.

Good catch on that possible safety violation....I appreciate you checking on it....we need to keep each other accountable.

 

[Spike_351]

great question....I should clarify....

only one performed cross draw at a time, and they were placed at the end of the line so that their cross draw was to the outside of the entire group. two of us are right handed and one was left handed. It was all done safely.

Good catch on that possible safety violation....I appreciate you checking on it....we need to keep each other accountable.

Ah I see, I knew there was a reasonable explanation, personally I have always carried a spare mag, I actually done a few experiments of my own lately, it looks like I may have to try something like this myself. I'm thinking maybe an appendix carried bug may be quicker to reach and draw in a situation where it is needed.

 

[rvb]

I've seen people hesitate to drop a dead gun during training (with slide locked back) because they didn't want to damage it. I remain unconvinced that they would behave differently during a tense social encounter.

what possible reason would you have for tossing a real (non-"blue") gun? Even in the OP's drill they weren't shooting the empty primary, just holding and tossing, so a blue gun would be better there, too. I would hesitate tossing a real gun in practice for sure... sights get bent or knocked in the dovetail, muzzle crowns dinged, etc. No thanks. If I -NEEDED- to toss the gun "on the real world streetz," I would not hesitate.....

I often joke I get 6 chances to hit a bad guy with my 642.... 5xBANG + 1xTHROW. But I confess to not practicing that at the range.

-rvb

 

[rhino]

what possible reason would you have for tossing a real (non-"blue") gun? Even in the OP's drill they weren't shooting the empty primary, just holding and tossing, so a blue gun would be better there, too. I would hesitate tossing a real gun in practice for sure... sights get bent or knocked in the dovetail, muzzle crowns dinged, etc. No thanks. If I -NEEDED- to toss the gun "on the real world streetz," I would not hesitate.....

What evidence do you have that you wouldn't hesitate? How do you know? I ask because the first few times I tried it, I hesitated for various reasons.

First of all, I don't toss it. It's dropped, which is different, but probably not an important distinction. Second, the reason for dropping it is that you can draw and present another weapon without being encumbered. I've practiced this with reholstering the first weapon, retaining the weapon in one hand and drawing with the other, and also dropping it before getting the next weapon. Dropping is the fastest and least prone to confuse me or cause me to overthink what I'm doing, and it doesn't necessarily force you into shooting one handed (as does retaining the first weapon in one of your hands).

I'm sure a blue gun would work nicely if you're just testing times, but it's not going to work in a series of shooting drills where you're only going to do it when the gun you're shooting quits. Being able to do it when circumstances warrant is not something you can practice with a blue gun because with a blue gun you know exactly what's going to happen every time.

I'm not going to try to coerce anyone into doing it at all, much less my way, if they don't want to do it. I'm not overly concerned about breaking or scuffing my stuff during training.

 

[rvb]

I'm not going to try to coerce anyone into doing it at all, much less my way, if they don't want to do it. I'm not overly concerned about breaking or scuffing my stuff during training.

I dont care about scuffs, but needlessly tossing [dropping] good equipment seems like the recipe for a costly drill. It's a moo* point for me anyway as I've never carried a backup gun. that's what I was really trying to get at... if going for a bug is the only reason you'd practice this way or if there were other reasons for doing this. Id most likely be doing anything I can to retain my gun, be it empty, broken, or jammed as it would still probably be the best weapon I have on me.

*moo point: like a cow's opinion.... doesn't matter.

-rvb

 

[lovemachine]

The way I see it, is if you carry a back up gun, theres a reason for it. To arm someone else, or to have when your primary carry gun breaks or its empty.

If it's broke, or empty, why would you want to retain it? I would think you would want to drop it immediately, and gain access to a gun that is working and ready to go. Why retain it, when you're in a middle of a gun fight, if the gun is useless? Retain it afterwards.

 

[lovemachine]

By the way, I don't carry a back up gun. I carry an extra magazine though.

The biggest reason why I don't carry a back up gun is because I only own 2 handguns. One is a carry, the other is left at home for home defense. I felt it important to have a gun left at home for my wife to use when she is home alone.

 

[rvb]

If it's broke, or empty, why would you want to retain it? I would think you would want to drop it immediately, and gain access to a gun that is working and ready to go. Why retain it, when you're in a middle of a gun fight, if the gun is useless? Retain it afterwards.

I assume this was directed at my comment? I only see me dropping the gun if it's out of commission AND I suddenly need two hands to wrestle a muzzle away from me. I don't carry a bug, so I'm to get another gun from where? Pause the fight while I hit up gander mountain and wait on nics? I would retain it because it makes a nice blunt object vs bare hands.

Nothing wrong w/ carrying a bug. I would if I were a law man. I choose not to carry a bug (unless you consider that often I use a "bug gun" as a primary).

-rvb