Reagan budget director warns:America has ‘reached the point of no return,’

[Pocketman]

...
Our salary is 23,000 per year.
We spend 35,000 per year.
We owe a total of 140,000 for overspending in years past.
Each year we add 12,000 to what we owe. ...

Time for the wife to go back to work.

While at first pass this appears somewhat facetious, but in reality it reflects a mindset. People who over spend and get into debt trouble often seek another source of revenue rather that give up the life style. Government is no different. They will seek to raise revenue (taxes) rather than make difficult decisions on spending cuts. Given the kind of debt trouble we're facing, both remedies will likely be necessary.

I am open to correction on this, but I understand Social Security was designed to pay for itself. From what I've been able to glean, it would be self sustaining had Congress not repeatedly raided the fund. Therefore, Social Security in itself is not the root problem, so removing it from the budget would not solve anything.

 

[dross]

if we can get you to follow the founding fathers on overseas bases,,,foreign wars,,,and standing armies...we might get somewhere on reducing spending...

Let's cut all of defense:

Now our budget looks like this:

Our salary is 23,000 per year.
We spend 28,441 per year.
We owe a total of 140,000 for overspending in years past.
Each year we add 5,441 to what we owe.

We spend about 8750 to operate our household, to fund the different functions, excepting defense.

We spend 0 on defense.

We spend 19,859 that we give to other people in our house in the form of social security, medicare, medicaid, welfare, and unemployment benefits.

We spend 1620 per year on interest for the debt of years past.

Okay, done. What's next?

 

[hornadylnl]

Dross,

Maybe you haven't seen my post yet but do you think a family that can't maintain a budget at $23,000 a year will be able to do so at $35,000 a year? Our cultural mindset is to always spend more than we have. How many of us think about how much extra money we will have in our wallet after we get that loan paid off or that pay raise only to not have any more to show for it once we do? We tend to nickle and dime that money away and never figure out where it actually went. Now add in the fact that our government is spending someone else's money, they have no desire to cut their spending.

 

[dross]

Dross,

The problem with growing GDP to overcome our debt is this. If you can't make it on $23,000, you won't make it on $35,000. Your spending will go up. Do you think our congress will hold the line on spending?

Wilkow had a pretty good monologue on this the other day. Our government is setting it's budget long before they even know what revenues are going to be. Income vs spending has no bearing on the choices our government makes.

Limiting spending and growing GDP is just as wishful thinking as cutting welfare programs.

Not only that, but holding the line on spending also requires faith that future congresses will also hold the line on spending.

I think we'd need a dictator to make the "don't increase spending" plan work.

I vote we just inflate the money supply so much that our debt becomes worthless. Then it'll be easy to pay it off.

I didn't say I had a good solution, I just have a solution. Any potential solution is going to have major problems.

The first and biggest problem is that a group of politicians has to pass it, which means it must be politically palatable. Drastically cutting entitlements, which I'd be for, just won't happen.

The main point of my argument is that the chorus of "cut defense" doesn't solve the problem. Even if we cut it out completely, we're faced with the same problem, just not as large.

Yes, we should cut defense. We can't cut it completely, but again, even if we do, it still gets us only halfway there. But since I conceded ALL defense spending, I'd now like the chorus to sing the next verse.

 

[hornadylnl]

But since I conceded ALL defense spending, I'd now like the chorus to sing the next verse.

Our country doesn't have the stones to do it.

 

[machete]

Let's cut all of defense:

Now our budget looks like this:

no

Defense Spending Is Much Greater than You Think | The Beacon

 

[Pocketman]

You guys are doing a good job with this. dross, your analogy using household income is quite helpful. The one positive aspect to all this is people and politicians are at least talking about it.

Any thoughts on overseas manufacturing? Our spending is making it's way to China and other "developing" countries. Add to that what goes to the Arabs for oil. Perhaps we should stop the bleeding first?

 

[dross]

no

Defense Spending Is Much Greater than You Think | The Beacon

Okay, you win.

Assuming I agree with this article, which I don't, I concede that we would only have a small deficit (it wouldn't take care of the whole thing) if we took every penny used on anything this article defines as defense, including the State Department, any expenditures on security, the portion of the FBI that goes to external threats, AND we renege on Veterans Benefits already earned, AND we reneged on the interest we owe on previous expenditures that can in any way be linked to defense, if we did ALL of that, leaving our country with no defenses whatsoever AND no State Department, we would almost get to 0 deficit.

Of course the entitlement requirements increase every year, so in just a few years the deficit would be back to where it is now.

You win.

 

[machete]

Okay, you win.

Assuming I agree with this article, which I don't, I concede that we would only have a small deficit (it wouldn't take care of the whole thing) if we took every penny used on anything this article defines as defense, including the State Department, any expenditures on security, the portion of the FBI that goes to external threats, AND we renege on Veterans Benefits already earned, AND we reneged on the interest we owe on previous expenditures that can in any way be linked to defense, if we did ALL of that, leaving our country with no defenses whatsoever AND no State Department, we would almost get to 0 deficit.

Of course the entitlement requirements increase every year, so in just a few years the deficit would be back to where it is now.

You win.

this is what Ron Paul is talking about... the total cost of us meddling overseas is bankrupting the country... when you talk budget,,,defense is the elephant in the room,,,nothing else comes close... if we didnt spend the last 65 years with massive pointless overseas involvement,,,we wouldnt be in anywhere near the dire straits were in today...

lets say that we did spend just as much,,,blowing it all on demestic spending,,, imagine how awesome america would be if every decent size city had a rail or subway system,,,if every city were connected by high speed rail,,,if we were all driving electric cars,,,and if every bridge was sound...

if we defaulted on our debt then,,,who cares??? we still got all that really awesome stuff... instead,,,our pointless military spending gives us only an obligation for more spending and nothing to show for it,,,except a world that pretty much hates us...

 

[hornadylnl]

OK, Dross, you're the coach and we're in the locker room at half time. We're down 13 trillion to nothing. The Washington Deficits are killing us, the American Citizens. What's your coaching strategy for the second half? We have to score more points than the other team? Ok, I think that was the first rule we learned the first time we put our pads on. How do we execute that?

All this talk about what needs to happen if pointless if we are unwilling to do the work to make it happen. How are we going to make it happen? Our strategy for the last 100 years of standing on the sidelines with our pom poms has proven to be a failure. Put me in Coach, I'm ready to play. What do I do?
YouTube - John Fogerty - Centerfield

 

[dross]

this is what Ron Paul is talking about... the total cost of us meddling overseas is bankrupting the country... when you talk budget,,,defense is the elephant in the room,,,nothing else comes close... if we didnt spend the last 65 years with massive pointless overseas involvement,,,we wouldnt be in anywhere near the dire straits were in today...

lets say that we did spend just as much,,,blowing it all on demestic spending,,, imagine how awesome america would be if every decent size city had a rail or subway system,,,if every city were connected by high speed rail,,,if we were all driving electric cars,,,and if every bridge was sound...

if we defaulted on our debt then,,,who cares??? we still got all that really awesome stuff... instead,,,our pointless military spending gives us only an obligation for more spending and nothing to show for it,,,except a world that pretty much hates us...

Even with that ridiculous article, and the utterly ridiculous notion that you could cut all of that to zero, "defense" even the way you define it, is still only half of entitlement spending.

Nothing else comes close to defense? By your own argument you can see that's not true.

You are either:

1. Trolling and ignoring points on purpose
2. Not bothering to read what the person you're arguing with is writing
3. Mentally incapable of understanding anything other than the drivel you keep repeating.

Whichever of these it is, you are very close to being the first person I've ever put on an ignore list.

Have the simple courtesy of reading and then responding to the other person's points.

 

[machete]

OK, Dross, you're the coach and we're in the locker room at half time. We're down 13 trillion to nothing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04KQydlJ-qc

you can stop bleeding 40 to well over 100 billion a year by ending the drug war...

http://www.briancbennett.com/charts/fed-data/costs/real-costs05.htm

 

[dross]

OK, Dross, you're the coach and we're in the locker room at half time. We're down 13 trillion to nothing. The Washington Deficits are killing us, the American Citizens. What's your coaching strategy for the second half? We have to score more points than the other team? Ok, I think that was the first rule we learned the first time we put our pads on. How do we execute that?

All this talk about what needs to happen if pointless if we are unwilling to do the work to make it happen. How are we going to make it happen? Our strategy for the last 100 years of standing on the sidelines with our pom poms has proven to be a failure. Put me in Coach, I'm ready to play. What do I do?
YouTube - John Fogerty - Centerfield

I don't know.

The best I can see is to continue to try to put people in office who say they'll deal with this stuff, then vote out those who don't live up to it.

I agree with those on this board who say that's not working very well. I haven't heard any better alternatives. Third parties won't do it, because too many people don't believe what the third parties believe.

The forbidden topic may come about some day, but that time has yet to arrive.

Again, my point is that the cries of "cut defense" are just a way of grinding a particular axe.

The unicorn answer is to reform government, deal with fraud and abuse, and drastically cut entitlement programs. But I don't believe in unicorns.

So, you're in. Go out and take centerfield. I'm going to hit 1 trillion balls in the air at the same time. Catch as many as you can before they all hit the ground.

 

[machete]

Whichever of these it is, you are very close to being the first person I've ever put on an ignore list.

you said that about a week ago... i seem to be getting in the way of these fox news arguments youre trying to shove through to a crowd that pretty much wants to hear what youre saying... ENTITLEMENTS ARE BAD!!!! the truth is something else...

i thought you already had me on ignore... i was surprised but not pleased to see you respond to one of my posts... im in this thread to set the record straight... getting responded to by you isnt some sort of blessing that i want to keep...

yeah,,,we all know you say you hate entitlements,,,but we also know that the fox news base lives off medicare and social security,,,and a lot of fed state and local government pensions... they talk a good game about being opposed to entitlements,,,but the truth is they need them... if the republicans try to pass legislation to default on gov pensions,,,and stop medicare and social security,,,the fox news base would be watching olberman 5 minutes later...

 

[dross]

Ah, that was refreshing!

 

[hornadylnl]

Dross, we KNOW what the only workable game plan is. The problem is that we value our own lives more than liberty and our posterity. We have become polar opposites of our founding fathers. If we are unwilling to take the gloves off and do the work that needs to be done, we are doing nothing more than wasting bandwidth with these discussions.

 

[machete]

Even with that ridiculous article,

yeah,,,hes got about 14 books talking about the bloated size of government and the loss of our freedom,,,and you have???

he has a phd in Econ from Johns Hopkins... you have???

Amazon.com: Robert Higgs: Books, Biography, Blog, Audiobooks, Kindle

but were supposed to agree with your judgment that hes ridiculous,,,even though your talking on his subject,,,and hes an expert on this subject that youre trying to play around with from an easy chair...

right...

youre trying to keep a sacred cow propped up,,,while trying to cut the budget,,,when anyone who knows better has identified defense as our biggest problem in published materials...

youre going to have to get off it... you cant be taken seriously while talking about ---drastic--- cuts to entitlements,,,while not using that same sort of tone in talking about defense...

 

[rambone]

America spends almost as much money on Military as every other country in the world, combined. We spend 7 times as much money as the next largest military (China) even though they have several times our population.

Some people can view this as a success, others view it as a failure. Either way, we are $14,000,000,000,000 in debt and not slowing down.


World Military Spending — Global Issues

 

[dross]

America spends almost as much money on Military as every other country in the world, combined. We spend 7 times as much money as the next largest military (China) even though they have several times our population.

Some people can view this as a success, others view it as a failure. Either way, we are $14,000,000,000,000 in debt and not slowing down.


World Military Spending — Global Issues

Did you read what I've been writing upthread? I've shown quite clearly that the deficit can't be eliminated even by cutting all defense, even if you stretch the definition of defense into the ridiculous and cut all of THAT, you still don't eliminate the deficit that way.

For the umpteenth time, defense may very well be a legitimate place to cut, but the problem can't be fixed that way. And there's no way to cut all defense expenditure anyway.

 

[spearheadersarge]

Well, in the interest of cutting everything else, I say cut it all, Defense included. Pack it all in; Germany, Japan, South Korea, Iraq, and Afghanistan every soldier back home within 12 months! Put some of them on the border to fix that issue, keep the bases on the fringes and eliminate the Marines totally(duplicate capabilities), mothball most of the navy's surface fleet and don't buy another weapons system for at least two decades. Now the good part... All government salaries cut 25% and another 5% a year till total 50% reduction, all government programs reduced accordingly as the salaries with duplicative programs eliminated and no lifetime welfare, paying unwed mothers to have kids, subsidzed housing, or 150 weeks of un-employment. Government will only spend X amount of dollars budgeted nlt Jan 1, Quarterly reconciliations versus tax receipts, with adjustments to maintain a balanced budget. Get more money, you can get some big ticket wish list items, come up short, no presents for Christmas! No more borrowing, period! More volunteering and patriotism! No more free rides or entitlement for life programs or vote buying! What say you?