Real v. Fake

[Chase515]

Try five shots eyes closed. If all go in the same hole your doing it right.

 

[JettaKnight]

Who cares how the instructor can shoot. Can they take your skill level beyond where it was, for a reasonable value to you? Real.

Quarterback coaches don't out-throw the QB's they coach.


The initial question infers that an instructor is or is not bonafide. More often, the complaint is leveled against style or attitude. "This guy is full of himself" or "This guy wears flip flops". That's not really "real" or "fake", and it's more of a personal opinion.


[video=youtube;KreDNw_Y2hI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KreDNw_Y2hI[/video]
There are some clearly bad instructors, and I suppose that if you recognize it, you could learn how not to do things.

 

[Disposable Heart]

Take the vaunted Jelly Bryce of FBI training history: amazing shooter (almost paranormal), good teacher, but taught his agents to shoot the way he did, which they could not accomplish because of his almost unnatural knack for shooting. Real? Yes. Fake, nor exactly but possibly. He ignored his students skill sets and attempted to force his.

I see alot of instructors in do that: they teach what they know and expect the students to match. No cross training, no alternatives, just their way. A good instructor, REAL if you will, will be able to adapt to his- her students and teach based on their skill level, intended mission and equipment. A fake instructor will tell their students things like, "That M&P will get you killed" or "I dislike Glocks for XYZ reason" Fake is gear centric and all about THEIR way, ignoring the student's reason to be there or their goals.

Remember, Jerry Dove, best shooter in the FBI unit involved with the FBI Miami shooting, downloaded his Smith 39 mags to 5 rounds each to 'save weight'. Even the best shooters and instructors do stupid things. Real vs Fake is more of a case of educated, students of gunfighting vs someone hocking their mediocre grasp of shooting to make money off Fudds.

 

[Coach]

This is not about instructors in my mind. It is about shooters and gun people.

 

[Expat]

You mean like the guy that shows up for the pheasant put and take and someone has to help him put his brand new in the box shotgun together?

He did look good though.

 

[JettaKnight]

This is not about instructors in my mind. It is about shooters and gun people.

Oooooh...


The sad (and dangerous) thing is that "fake" shooters are still carrying real guns.

 

[rosejm]

There are some clearly bad instructors, and I suppose that if you recognize it, you could learn how not to do things.

Everyone can serve as an example, even if it's a bad one.



IMO (and not just w.r.t. shooting), it's about their engagement in the process. If a person feels that they don't need to examine, then change or refine their knowledge based on new information/experience, that's fake. You can have a different method/opinion/idea, but be prepared to back that up with more than hot air. You say the sky's green and the grass is blue? Convince me, there could be a interesting argument here.

Nobody knows all of it and thinking outside the box will at least expand the options in your toolbox.

This is not about instructors in my mind. It is about shooters and gun people.

I know know the difference when I see it. You do too.
And if we're honest with ourselves about it: if you can't tell the difference, then you know which team you're on.

 

[Brad69]

There is kind of a group here on INGO that train’s regularly with some of the high level dudes. It numbers about 15-20 we normally don’t coordinate we just see each other on the first day of training. We each have our own training budgets and come from all walks of life, gear varies kinda high end for most part when you spend $$$ for a class it’s nice not to have stuff break.

I have witnessed guys without the means for high level stuff that have good functional gear it might be Ruger 9 instead of a Glock that IMO were serious guys. On the other hand I have witnessed more with a DD carbine and other high end stuff that could barely load it.

Instructor
Career Mil/Leo people it’s hard to get that level of training outside of getting it from .gov

Marksmanship I look for competitive shooters that can make me a better shooter.

You can’t buy your way into being a better shooter you have to work at it.

But you can get a slick marketing team and make yourself a legend!

 

[LilEnis]

If it work it is real if it do not work it is not real lol. This is my share wisdom as little as it is.

 

[Ndavid45]

Just a thought i had reading through this but there is alot more to real or fake when it comes to shooters and gun people than if they are 'real operators'. If a person isnt very knowledgeable or good and has budget gear but wants to improve and takes steps toward that i wouldn't say they are fake. I have 2 ARs and know i would look like a fool trying to run a course with them at the moment but i try to absorb as much info as i can and hope to take a few classes to change that. As far as handguns i still would not consider myself an expert but am much more proficient and comfortable with them. To me a real gun person or shooter is someone who is honest with themselves about their ability and always trying to learn and improve. A fake would be someone who buys a gun and thinks thats all there is to it.

 

[turnandshoot4]

Is there a right answer?

Clint Smith or the Warrior Poet which one is real?

I remember at the introduction segment of a class one time that Henk Iverson made the comment that you could tell a real gunman by their gear. Real gunman have serious belts and holsters and others do not have real equipment. Do other's make such judgements? Can you be real wearing and Uncle Mike's holster of a Fobus Holster?

In any line of work there is the real deal and there are fakes? How does INGO sort them out.

There are a few places in my life where I take things very serious;y. I get a more than a little out of sorts when fakes try and occupy the same space or level as me. I cannot stand a hypocrite or a fake, and yet they abound. I guess I was really asking do people look for the fakes?

There is a big difference between a tattoo and a scar. In the shooting world are people looking for that difference.

In your response it is harder to tell in the defensive shooting world than it is in the competition world, unless you have won gunfights. Short of winning gunfights how do you tell the capable people from the pretenders?

Some interesting points here.

Henk's points might've been relevant 15 years ago, not anymore. Gucci gear is abound with people who don't even shoot. We now have a "show car" group of gun owners. I've been in classes with vetted delta guys that had a fobus holster with an XD. I was disappointed, but in the end they could shoot and had good techniques to teach. It isn't the arrow.

INGO can't sort them out. This is an online forum. Watch youtube and regurgitate when you hear and you will fit in fine. Whether you can do any of that is another matter.

I don't look for fakes, they will generally flush themselves out on their own.

On winning gunfights: This is an often used bar, which is interesting. Zimmerman won his combatives based gunfight. Does that make him capable? For this to be the bar, while it is good at times, it is very poor for others.

No offense is intended here.

In the end this is virtue signaling. It happens across the board in all of gun culture.

The gucci gear guys poo poo on the hunters because they don't have the newest tripod and best glass. Doesn't matter that they have made the 500 yard moose shot with their ruger m77 and crummy nikon scope.

The cops look down on the combatives/jiu jitsu guys because they haven't had to fight with a strung out crack head. Meanwhile, they really haven't had real resistance from a capable opponent in their entire career anywhere near their weight class. They have "been there, done that" everyday of their career, however.

Everyone is a fake until they aren't. It doesn't matter either way. If they have bad information, we should help them as much as we can. If we can't, let them go. If the fake gun owner is getting more attention than the real gun owners (I'm applying these terms liberally) it is because the real gun owners are too lazy to speak up and articulate why the fakes are just that, fakes.

All that is necessary for bad information to get pushed out is for good information to be withheld.

 

[gregkl]

I guess I never thought of "fake" meaning a lack of ability. To me fake is a falsehood, a counterfeit. Since I'm not a really good shooter, I guess that makes me a fake if I show up with quality gear? Or do I only need to be a poor marksman to be a fake?

 

[Coach]

Starting to be some thoughtful posts.