Reason and Force

[JosephR]

And likewise I can say that by you coming to my house, you have invited anal sex and that's what you are open to in the back of your mind. You can say I make my choices for whatever reason you want to and make it make sense to you but it sure as hell isn't my reason.

I let you into my lane because I like your car and wanted to see it from the backside- it's supposedly got a neat exhaust.

You COULD say that I reasoned that the best way to see it is from the rear and that FORCE would not work but that's just stupid.

This theory was written for something very specific and not meant to be used in every facet of life.

 

[jsgolfman]

The theory was written for interaction between people. I think you may be confusing the use of the word reason. It's not about the reason you do things, it is meant as either you reason (persuade/coerce) me or you use force on me to interact. Your reason for doing what you do is of no consequence, in this application, it matters only in how you interact with me. Do you attempt to reason or do you attempt to force?

You can try to persuade me into doing something unnatural or you can try to force me.

 

[JosephR]

I see the point. It's how you want to look at the world. Instead of Black and White you call it Reason and Force. Ethan Hawke called it "smiles and cries" in Training Day. Have fun with it.

I can think in shades of gray. It's fun.

I also can break my bathroom usage down to #1 and #2 but it's just not that simple ya know?

 

[jsgolfman]

It is black and white and it is gray. Whether you use force or not to interact and achieve a goal is black and white. The thought process that goes into making that decision can be as gray as you like.

 

[dross]

And likewise I can say that by you coming to my house, you have invited anal sex and that's what you are open to in the back of your mind. You can say I make my choices for whatever reason you want to and make it make sense to you but it sure as hell isn't my reason.

I let you into my lane because I like your car and wanted to see it from the backside- it's supposedly got a neat exhaust.

You COULD say that I reasoned that the best way to see it is from the rear and that FORCE would not work but that's just stupid.

This theory was written for something very specific and not meant to be used in every facet of life.

With respect, I think you are looking at the word "reason" too narrowly. In the essay, the writer was referring to reason and force being the only choices in the area of conflict. If I want you to perform an action or to stop performing an action, I only have two choices: I may appeal to your reason, or I may force you. If I wish to force you and I am unable because you are armed, I may only appeal to your reason. Reason in this context doesn't mean logical, organized, unemotional thought. Reason means deciding what's in your best interests after weighing the options. You might not think you're weighing all the options with your girlfriend or about letting a car in your lane, but that's because you don't have to do much weighing. A car signals to get in, you do a lightning fast unconcious search of your competing values (I want to be a polite driver, but I also want to get to my destination as quickly as possible) and whichever value is most important to you in that context wins out. You reasoned, even though you don't realize it. In this context, emotion can be a form of reason.

When we say someone did something unreasonable, we're really saying that from our perspective the person's actions ran counter to what we see as the better choice. What we don't usually understand is that when someone does something unreasonable there's usually an emotion that outweighs what seems to be, and may well be the more rational choice. For instance, buying a car you can't really afford because you want a red sports car. While not seeming reasonable, you still used reason to choose that car. It's just that your need for that car was more important to you at that moment than your finances.

Another way to think of it is simple: reason is everything that's not force.

 

[JosephR]

You do understand that all you are doing is reducing a very complicated thought process down to the very basics, right? It can be done with any two "words" of your chosing- even "smiles and cries" like I said. This is nothing special.

People do it every day and they usually "mix it up" depending on their mood or state of mind. It's nothing worth writing about.

 

[dross]

You do understand that all you are doing is reducing a very complicated thought process down to the very basics, right? It can be done with any two "words" of your chosing- even "smiles and cries" like I said. This is nothing special.

People do it every day and they usually "mix it up" depending on their mood or state of mind. It's nothing worth writing about.

No, I'm not doing that. If you think so, then you don't understand what I mean - which is not to say it's your fault.

If you read what I wrote very carefully, I think you'll understand this better. It is impossible to make a decision without reasoning. Even if you flip a coin, it's because your reason has determined that both outcomes are equally good/bad, or because you don't have enough information to tell which one is better for you.

How about this explanation: Reason is the determination of how an action fits with your values. You do that in every action you take - again, some of them are just made very quickly because you've done all the hard work before you make the decision.

For instance in sports, the quarterback makes instant decisions. You would say he has no time to reason it out. Yet, all the reasoning was done long before when the coach drew up the play. Then the quarterback practiced until he could execute all that reasoning without having to stop and think.

This is what our emotions do for us. They tell us how we feel about something based on what's happened to us in the past. It's a shortcut to having to reason out every decision over and over when they're really the same decision.

 

[JosephR]

I think by showing that reason is the use of logic or thinking, then you've illustrated that you always use reason.

 

[cce1302]

JosephR-
I'm not following your line of discussion. Are you disagreeing with the second sentence in the essay?

f you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or forcing me to do your bidding under threat of force.

If you are, then please explain how you can influence me to do something-anything- for you (that I don't want to do for you already) without using reason or force. I don't think there's any other way.

 

[JosephR]

What about when the person (or me) is perfectly willing and already wants to do what you want them to? You have to use neither and therefore this doesn't work in every situation and obviously not everything comes to this...

I think you just need to be more specific about when this is to be used.

 

[cce1302]

What about when the person (or me) is perfectly willing and already wants to do what you want them to? You have to use neither and therefore this doesn't work in every situation and obviously not everything comes to this...

I think you just need to be more specific about when this is to be used.

I think it's pretty clear that the author is not talking about using reason or force to convince you to do something that you already want to do.

 

[dross]

What about when the person (or me) is perfectly willing and already wants to do what you want them to? You have to use neither and therefore this doesn't work in every situation and obviously not everything comes to this...

I think you just need to be more specific about when this is to be used.

If you already wanted to do something, and intended to do it, neither reason nor force is relevant.

Reason: I think you should go to the store, because you need some goods.
You: I was going to the store anyway.

Force: Go to the store or I'm going to shoot you.
You: I was going to the store anyway.

Your example is not relevant to the point you're trying to make.