Regulating Dogs?

[Kitty]

Several threads here and some recent personal experiences lead me to ask this.

Many breeds are being targeted and local governments are either banning or regulating certain dog breeds. This is most often targeted at “pit bulls” and “pit bull variants” but there are bans that cover many breeds (one I know of covers Boston terriers).


How do INGOer’s feel about Breed Bans and Breed Specific Legislation (BSL)?

 

[Rob377]

Stupid crap devised by stupid people with nothing better to do.

 

[Kitty]

I didn't want to put this in the poll posting but . . .


To me the argument is very similar to the anit-2A people: “Those breeds are dangerous”, “We would all be safer”, and the ever popular “For the children.” It’s all about media and fear tactics.


And just like gun bans do not prevent gun violence, both the ASPCA and HSUS have shown that BSL does not prevent dog bites. The CDC has come out and said that breed is not a main factor in dog bites:
“A CDC study on fatal dog bites lists the breeds involved in fatal attacks over 20 years (Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998). It does not identify specific breeds that are most likely to bite or kill, and thus is not appropriate for policy-making decisions related to the topic.”


Also most “sites” that list dog bites by breed only use media reports. These reports are often written without anybody with any breed expertise even looking at the dog or checking to see its history (registration papers, sire and *****, even how the dog is registered with its vet). I recently read the report of a toddler killed by the neighbor’s dog. The newspaper reported the dog to be a huge “pit bull mix”. The dog turned out to be an AKC registered rough coated collie (thinks Lassie).

 

[badwolf.usmc]

The Marine Corp has banned several breeds of dogs from bases, to include base housing. The ban is for pit bulls, Rottweilers, canid/wolf hybrids, or mixed breeds with at least 50% of the previously mentioned breeds.

I have a German Shepard/Rottweiler mix and she is the most gentle dog that i have ever had, at least to people. If you raise your voice to her she cowers, we think she was abused as a pup before we got her. Worthless as a general guard dog, unless it is protecting the yard from squirrels or robins. There has been several casualties this year so far.

 

[Kitty]

The Marine Corp has banned several breeds of dogs from bases, to include base housing. The ban is for pit bulls, Rottweilers, canid/wolf hybrids, or mixed breeds with at least 50% of the previously mentioned breeds.

<snip>

I hear about that. How sad. A breed that has served and even been on posters has now become a criminal. I was trying to look up info on this and remember seeing something about them giving "wavier" to families who were already on base with the dogs. Almost all received "good dog" waivers. I remember one person saying it was like the "blacks in WWII".

 

[badwolf.usmc]

I hear about that. How sad. A breed that has served and even been on posters has now become a criminal. I was trying to look up info on this and remember seeing something about them giving "wavier" to families who were already on base with the dogs. Almost all received "good dog" waivers. I remember one person saying it was like the "blacks in WWII".

I read that as well, but i couldn't find the article so i didn't mentioned it. Also, it looks like they stopped the waiver process sometime in 2010.

 

[eldirector]

Personally, I think these laws are a poor attempt at legislating common sense.

If you aren't going to take the time to get the right dog for you, train it, work with it, and make it part of your family.... don't get the dog.

I've not met a well-trained "bully breed" yet that wasn't an awesome dog. I've run across a few practically feral ones that were dangerous, but the same can be said for feral cats.

 

[Kitty]

Found the one on the waiver - 83 out of 85 were fine but the breeds need banning?!?

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/10/my-entry.html[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Kitty]

Personally, I think these laws are a poor attempt at legislating common sense.

I think this is just another way they want people to give into fear.

If you aren't going to take the time to get the right dog for you, train it, work with it, and make it part of your family.... don't get the dog.

I've not met a well-trained "bully breed" yet that wasn't an awesome dog. I've run across a few practically feral ones that were dangerous, but the same can be said for feral cats.

We had a woman come into the shelter on Tuesday night. I was showing her a couple of dogs for her and two preteen boys. I showed her a "pit/staffie" mix. She got upset and "reminded" me that she had kids so she didn't want a dangerous dog.

I explained that I had been working with the particular dog for a few months, and that he was really very gentle and smart. The only reason he has been there so long was a court case over custody.

She said (and I quote), "You spend too much time with him to know how dangerous he is. After all, he's a pit." And she wanted the yellow "lab" mix - even those we KNOW he's nippy and has a high prey drive. (I have put the breeds in quotes as they are the best guess of our vet.)

 

[VaGriller]

I didn't want to put this in the poll posting but . . .


To me the argument is very similar to the anit-2A people: “Those breeds are dangerous”, “We would all be safer”, and the ever popular “For the children.” It’s all about media and fear tactics.


And just like gun bans do not prevent gun violence, both the ASPCA and HSUS have shown that BSL does not prevent dog bites. The CDC has come out and said that breed is not a main factor in dog bites:
“A CDC study on fatal dog bites lists the breeds involved in fatal attacks over 20 years (Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998). It does not identify specific breeds that are most likely to bite or kill, and thus is not appropriate for policy-making decisions related to the topic.”


Also most “sites” that list dog bites by breed only use media reports. These reports are often written without anybody with any breed expertise even looking at the dog or checking to see its history (registration papers, sire and *****, even how the dog is registered with its vet). I recently read the report of a toddler killed by the neighbor’s dog. The newspaper reported the dog to be a huge “pit bull mix”. The dog turned out to be an AKC registered rough coated collie (thinks Lassie).

I would also love to see the news article identifying a pitbull mix as the attacker and the dog really being an AKC reg'd Lassie.

Thanks!

 

[7th Stepper]

I'm TOTALLY AGAINST the govt or anyone else deciding what breed of dog I choose to have. I've raised and trained Pits or AST's for over 30 years now, and I have yet to EVER have one turn on me, or it's owner, if I was training someone elses dog. For the record I've trained and gentled horses for over 20 years as well, AND worked as a vet tech for the vets who frequented the Ranch where I was employed as a Medic.

They are of above average intelligence, affectionate, loyal, loving, devoted and extremely protective members of their "pack", aka their owners and extended families.

Ours know commands that most people wouldn't even think of to train their dog with, because out of ease, I have incorporated the horse commands I used, in with the dog commands, and vice versa.Ours not only know the usual sit, stay, wait, roll over (or "**** up" as we say it), down, lay, off, come, stop, etc., commands, they know over, back up, foot, walk, trot, run, and several more horse commands as well. It was just easier to use the commands universally to avoid confusion.

Our dogs ran loose while on Ranch property, and often times went out of the trails to patrol with us as well. They helped keep the other animals away from the horses, including cougars, cyote's, (sp? never could spell that word correctly) feral dogs, coons, and a variety of other animals that would "spook" the horses, or harm them, away from us on the trails. I've seen a couple take on a several foot long rattlesnake and kill it to keep it from biting either the horse or rider. Our dogs were also very well socialized, and interacted with a variety of breeds from long hair Chichuhuas to Great Danes, German Shepherds. Dobermans, Rotties, and even the barn cats we had to keep the mouse population down in both the barns as well as the hay barns.

We'd use them to herd the horses in, in the mornings (they actually do this naturally because of their training instincts dating back to Bull Fights in Spain) or herd them to the upper pasture when we closed down the rental string for the night. Ours (and there were several at the ranch, around 50 or so, quite a few owners had Pits, because of their intelligence, willingness to learn, and fierce protection out on the trails) all got along like one big pack, and we never had an actual "fight to the death" (like you so often hear about, FALSE info). They also interacted with all the people who came up to the ranch to ride, either rental horses, or their own private ones. And NO ONE was ever bitten, even obnoxious children who'd run up to the dogs and yank on the nearest body part, thinking it was funny. At that point, they weren't as far "out of favor" as they are now, and were highly valued for the services they provided.

We also never had a problem with anyone abusing our rental string or private horses, the dogs wouldn't permit it, and no, NOT by attacking the person who was being mean. Just by standing guard in front of the horse, and staring down the person who was about to hit them with a crop, stick, piece of rope, etc. until the idiot finally figured out that doing that really wasn't as a smart an idea as they thought it was. They never growled (Pits don't normally growl or show their fangs as other breeds of dogs do) or became aggressive (as other breeds do and did up there), they'd just stand in front of the horse, between it and the person, and stare them down. Once the person moved on, the problem was solved.

We'd also have a few of the dogs (several breeds) stand guard when a parent would bring their child, and all the childs friends up to the ranch for some sort of party. Usually a Birthday one. A lot of parents would plop their child (usually from the age of 3 on up) on the back of 1 or 2 of our Shetland Ponies, and Blue, our big grey mare, and let them cruise around the smaller "turn out" arena, totally unsupervised. Often the kids would fall off, and one of the dogs would run over and stand guard over the child, so they didn't accidentally get stepped on by the horse when the mom (or moms) went neurotic because their child actually fell off, because they weren't supervised!

There was a party one Saturday, where there must have been at least 25 kids, and 12 or so Moms, and they got to chatting while paying no attention to the kids, even the ones who were riding. They'd forgotten to shut the gate, and Blue and the Ponies (Cinderella and Fantasy) decided to head back up to the tie barn, without warning. All of a sudden we heard a huge commotion, and the sound of hoof beats coming at us at a rather fast clip. Blue and the ponies were moving much faster than they normally would have (we used them because they had 2 speeds, "darned slow", and "stop".

If it hadn't been for the dogs quick actions, the kids could/would have been hurt, either by falling off a moving horse, or being scraped off by the animals brushing by each other to make it to the barn faster. The dogs darted out, split up between the horses, and grabbed the dangling lead ropes. Pits aren't normally a large breed of dog (weighing between 35 and 60 lbs) the ponies weighed in at 500 lbs, and Blue was somewhere around 800 lbs. The dogs grabbed the lead rope in their mouths and brought the ponies and Blue under control in about 5 seconds, slowing them to a slow crawl, as the rest of us came running down to meet them, and snatch the kids off the animals, so they wouldn't and couldn't fall off in all the excitement. Especially because the moms came running up from behind, screaming at the top of their lungs, which respooked Blue and the ponies, and they tried to take off again. The dogs held them fast, and we gave each child (there were 6 on board, 2 on each horse/pony)back to the parent and gave our dogs the command "bring em in".

The dogs trotted off, leading each larger animal by it's lead rope, right up into the tie barn and into it's proper stall. We chewed out the parents for NOT supervising their children, and putting their lives at risk by falling off a pretty fast moving horse/pony. Had one of the kids been stepped on, it could have easily crushed the bone where the hoof landed. But that didn't happen, BECAUSE of the fast action and forethought of our dogs. They hadn't been trained to do this (it was the first and last time it ever happened) they just reacted to protect the kids, who were also screaming in fear as well. Had the dogs not reacted so well, we really could have had a bad wreck, with severe injuries.

Renters (at least our regulars) brought their dogs up with them, and all the dogs got along, even if they'd never seen the others before. In fact, the DOGS were better mannered than the renters were, and weren't trying to prove how much of a "macho cowboy" they were. We taught the dogs to "track" as well, since a lot of the accidents we had up there were out on the trails, and we didn't have a clue which trail the injured person was on. We'd let the dogs smell the horses (the horses always came back riderless, that's how we knew there'd been an accident), climb back on the horse ourselves, and give the command "seek". The dogs could and would lead us right up to where the person was laying or sitting on the trail, or where they'd actually gone over the side, and we got to them faster that way, preserving "the Golden Hour", which is when treatment is usually the most important. If they weren't hurt, we'd put them on behind us and ride double back to the yard, or take the reins off an both dog and horse would head back as fast as they could, as our sign of "call 911, we need a truck".

The point of this is that we had all sorts of breeds at the ranch, at a variety of times, and NEVER ONE had a problem, ESPECIALLY among the Pits and Pit mixes.

I'd compare it to this analogy, we all carried knives (CA is a "May Issue" state) and we were required to wear them to use in case of an emergency. Just because we all carried one, didn't mean we ran around stabbing people just because they "looked funny", or were aggressive in their behavior. Had it been allowed, we'd probably have all carried guns as well. But just because we did or could, didn't mean a huge blood bath broke out every time there was a disagreement of some sort, We were responsible, the dogs were responsible, we took the time to train them to act in a non-violent manner, and everyone got along quite well.

Just because there were 40 to 50 Pit Bulls there, didn't mean we had a range war because they're "naturally vicious dogs who can and will turn on you in a moments notice". That's media crap, and the funny thing was, the couple of times we had the media up there, even THEY weren't afraid of these horrible vicious dogs. Most of the time they didn't even know they were Pits, unless we told them! They'd praise the dogs loyalty, bravery, intelligence, obedience, etc., and never realize that the dog they later created such a sink about, was the very breed of dog they were so happy with, and impresses by, and usually petting!

Don't stereotype an animal you know nothing about, except what you've heard about on the news, or read about in the paper. The stories aren't always correct, and usually what's NOT being reported! Pits aren't for everyone, but if you ever put the prejudice aside, you might find out what the rest of us already know. That they're by far, hands down, one of the best dogs you can ever have as your best friend. Sadly tho, there are those who's mentality will never change. "Their minds are made up, don't confuse them with the facts."

7th Stepper

 

[Kitty]

I would also love to see the news article identifying a pitbull mix as the attacker and the dog really being an AKC reg'd Lassie.

Thanks!

It was the NCRC (Nation Canine Research Center) statical data from 2009 (yes it takes that long because they go over 1000's of reported bites). The are the only group that I know of that DO NOT USE media reports to determine breed. Rather, they try to check papers, lineage, and even photos.

The collie stood out because it was ridiculous - and not the way the family reported it. They had original told the police 'large dog', news paper went with pit bull without checking. There were also malamutes reported as wolves (at least they look a bit alike).

I get the report each spring, always about 2 years old. I think it is published in Bark magazine, but they have a pretty detailed site.

The biggest thing about dog breeds and dog bites is that almost ALL only use media reports.

 

[INMIline]

I think it is 100% bull ****! You know what the problem is with the Pit Bull Terrier. Back yard breeders. Breeding bad dogs. Every breed is going to have the occasionally bred bad temperament pup. With The Pit Bull it shouldn't be tolerated at all! Period! If a 4 month old pup shows humane aggression it should be put down. This breed wasn't bred to be a protection breed at all. It was bred for a job. A job that involved a ref that was willing to reach his hand in a fighting dogs mouth while it had a hold and untangle a curled lip. These dogs were taken home after a contest and nursed by the house wife. They were family companions. Dog fighting is animal cruelty I strongly feel this way. But you must understand that most of it was done developing the breed and during the Great Depression. These were registered contests and not only was there money to be made on winnings but the offspring of a grand champion (4 X winner) went for a lot of money. In a time when there was no work, and this was looked at as a sport (again I don't agree with dog fighting) a man had to do what he had to do to feed the family.

I will do my best to outline a match:

Two guys agree to a weight. A date would be set, around 6 weeks to condition a dog. It is the same concept as today's prize fighter, you dropped as much weight off the dog as you could while keeping his stamina. Match day, the dogs are brought to a scale. The opposite owners of each dog had the option to bath the other guys dog. This was to insure there wasn't any deadly poison or deter ant on the dogs. They were placed in a 16 x 16 box. The handler (usually not the dog's breeder, but hired men that specialize in handling) each took there dog to a corner of this box. They then let them go. Not in the event of a "turn" a scratch would be called. They were returned to the corners. The dog that turned away from the fight was to be let go first. If this dog didn't run out it lost.
A fight could be lost three ways. Not coming out to scratch, handler stops the fight (which was done if a dog was clearly not winning but showed heart) or death. The first two were more common.

Again human aggression was not permitted in the breed. Would you want to bath a strange dog or ref a match with a chance of getting bit?

The Pit Bull Terrier was the U.S. mascot dog in WWI. Petey off the little rascals was a Pit Bull whose bloodline can be found to this day as Luci's Petey. Teddy Roosevelt had one in the White House. A Pit Bull actually made the rank of Sergeant in WWI

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergeant_Stubby

You can't blame a breed. Especially the most American Breed of dog ever bred. Sure it originated form England or Ireland. But we created the cream of the crop. This dog was bred to be the most complete athlete on the planet. An average Pit Bull can be compared to physical attributes of a prime LaBron James or Floyd Mayweather. It takes a responsible owner to have one. But as of today most owners aren't.

I can argue every myth surrounding this breed. But I will touch on the most common. They turn on you.
Nonsense.

A dog needs to understand who is in charge. They need to be taught a harsh no mean stuff stops now! They need to learn basic commands. The dogs you see on the news (media loves to hype the bad dog) are for the most part mix bred dogs. Any dog that bites and either has a block head or is brindle in color is looked at as a Pit Bull by both LE and the media. Again, as in every breed there is the occasional bad bred dog.

Now for the they were bred to fight therefore are aggressive. They were bred for a job. When taught to do that job they will. Will a retriever attack a new born wrapped in a blanket thinking it's a bird? Humane aggression and animal aggression is different.

 

[bigo334]

I used to have a pit bull he was the sweetest dog I have ever had nice to everyone and only barked when ppeople knocked on my door. On that not 2 of my best friends have them also and one of them Jr. Is afraid of a rat terror. So I see no harm in them at all its all in how you raise your dog

 

[Kitty]

I can only find the fatality report online:

http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/uploaded_files/tinymce/2009 Final Report DBRF.pdf

 

[KLB]

Why would anyone ban a Boston Terrier?

The media tells people to be afraid and they are.

Why would you want to be able to think for yourself? It is a dangerous world out there, let the government think for you.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

The problem is always with the people involved. I was in the dog industry for years and I can say 100% its the owners more than the dog. Yes there are poorly bred dogs but you can have that in any breed and good examples of any breed.

The worst breed by far? Labs. Followed by German Shepards.

The most dangerous? Chihuahua. Followed by Boston Terriers.

If it were up to me I would ban any dog under 20lbs and castrate any owner that lets their dog get loose or bite someone.





And PLEASE, if you aren't going to breed them, neuter them.

 

[Kitty]

The problem is always with the people involved. I was in the dog industry for years and I can say 100% its the owners more than the dog. Yes there are poorly bred dogs but you can have that in any breed and good examples of any breed.

The worst breed by far? Labs. Followed by German Shepards.

The most dangerous? Chihuahua. Followed by Boston Terriers.

If it were up to me I would ban any dog under 20lbs and castrate any owner that lets their dog get loose or bite someone.

And PLEASE, if you aren't going to breed them, neuter them.

Amen! And the owners of the ankle-biters don't see why they should go through obedience training. "They're so little." Yeah, like needles.

Can I amend that to RESPONSIBLY breed them, then spay/neuter! Big difference.

 

[Kitty]

Why would anyone ban a Boston Terrier?

The media tells people to be afraid and they are.

Why would you want to be able to think for yourself? It is a dangerous world out there, let the government think for you.

They have bulldog in the lineage. There are bans that say "any breed descended from bulldogs."

 

[bmmyers08]

The problem is always with the people involved. I was in the dog industry for years and I can say 100% its the owners more than the dog. Yes there are poorly bred dogs but you can have that in any breed and good examples of any breed.

The worst breed by far? Labs. Followed by German Shepards.

The most dangerous? Chihuahua. Followed by Boston Terriers.

If it were up to me I would ban any dog under 20lbs and castrate any owner that lets their dog get loose or bite someone.





And PLEASE, if you aren't going to breed them, neuter them.

couldnt agree more!! i have a pitbull and a doberman. both are the sweetest most loving dogs i have ever had! protective of their property yes but wouldnt hurt people unless threatened...i have people they dont know over constantly. never had an issue! people always leave saying how well behaved and loving they are! usually they are skeptical because of news coverage and media. once they meet my dogs opinions are continuously changed!