Responsible with Firearem-OC & Situations

[Coach13]

I am working on my INGO Responsible Armed Citizen Education. I just can't imagine the feeling and/or consequences, of choicing to employ my weopon and indirectly go to jail myself...... the only thing that scares me worse is not, and getting dead!

I have encouraged a few people to get their permits and continue to encourage others everytime is brought up. Everyone that I have got to get it, 6 people, all of us are new to the subject but not idiots. This leads to the Q's below.

Why don't you OC yet? I am not scared, embarrassed, or uncomfortable. But, I am unsure of what are my rights and/or right answers in the event an officer approaches me and doesn't know my rights either. I have seen some videos and threads here and I am still very unclear.

2 questions

1: If confronted by an officer when OC or CC, what do I say? What might he say? What if he says something that is incorrect? I am not against officers, my dad is one 30+years. I know what dad says but would like to hear more points of view and situations members have been through.

2: When is the right time to use your firearm? I don't mean shoot someone, although that would be on the list. I am unclear of when a situation would be apporopriate-expose-posture-pull firearm. I know this is broad subject, hypotheticals would be cool too.

 

[Coach13]

Hey, I don't go around messing with other people for jollies and I'd love to pound those who do.

But the simple fact of the matter is that you live in a world where you cannot count on random people in public to play by the same rules you do. One of the first things you learn in self defense is that the most successful end to an encounter is avoiding it in the first place. It has nothing to do with being soft, and everything to do with being responsible. If you see trouble and can get away, do so. If you can't get away, you do anything you can to ensure you survive it and the troublemaker doesn't. Posturing about standing your ground is all good and fine, but your defense doesn't start with the weapon, it starts by not being there where trouble is. This has nothing to do with carrying openly versus carrying concealed. The fact of the matter is you wanted to intimidate this guy, which you did successfully. It sounds to me like you are now trying to justify it. Yeah, the threat ended without anyone getting hurt which is good, but the threat would have ended sooner without the risk of anyone getting hurt.

From a legal standpoint you may be perfectly within your rights to stand your ground in Indiana, but chances are extremely good that even if you have a justified shoot you will lose your weapon, and it will cost you several thousand dollars in lawyers fees and lots of lost sleep and worry as to whether or not the local prosecutor will charge you with anything, and then there's the worry of a civil lawsuit from the family of the "poor innocent person you ruthlessly gunned down." Ask yourself, is all of that worth it to "teach a small lesson?"

Great post, thank you for the reply. Next time I think I will handle the situation the way of your post. makes total sense. This was kind of what I was looking for. I am not justifying it, just looking for the line and seeing if I crossed it.

Shooting someone, hope to God I never have to, got nothing to do with the monitary costs. It's sleeping at night knowing I took someones life and potential of going to jail myself, these lurk in my conscious.

 

[cosermann]

Recommended reading:

Amazon.com: Indiana Firearms Law Reference Manual, Third Edition (Volume 3) (9780984617807): Bryan Lee Ciyou: Books


http://www.amazon.com/Indiana-Handg...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1291058991&sr=8-2

 

[Hammerhead]

Your responses to LEOs are conditional.

CC - If you're walking by an officer and he wants to know about you CCing, you do not have to respond, nor inform him of your LTCH or that you're carrying. If you're out walking and an officer has official business with you, you do not have to inform him that you have a LTCH or are carrying. If you are driving and are pulled over for an infraction, you do not have to inform the officer of your LTCH or that you are carrying.

OC - If you are walking by an officer and he notices that you are carrying, you have no duty to do anything. If he stops you for OCing, he can ask for your LTCH. You do not have to provide ID (DL, ID card) but you may be required to ID yourself verbally (name, address, DOB). Same goes for walking and if an officer has official business with you. It should be noted that at this point, if you have a valid LTCH and have produced it, any question about you carrying SHOULD be terminated. If the officer has other business with you, that's fine. However, as noted regularly, LEOs do not always follow this and may attempt to get you to hand over your firearm, or make it safe, or any other myriad of requests. You do not have to comply. (You should be repeating the phrase "Am I being detained, or am I free to go". Remember this phrase.)

If you are pulled over for a moving violation, you are not required to inform that you are carrying or have a LTCH even if you are OCing. If the officer notices that you are OCing, he can and probably will request your LTCH. He, again, may request that you disarm, make it safe, etc. Again, this is a request. You are not legally required to comply. However, this may escalate your interaction, depending on the LEO. Empirical evidence even on this board shows that the responses range from "don't touch it" to having a gun stuck in your ear and being pulled from the vehicle.

If you are confronted by a LEO about your carrying a sidearm, cooperate to your level of comfort. Provide your LTCH if asked and keep your mouth shut and your hands away from your piece at a minimum. Some LEOs do not know the laws, or they attempt to enforce a misguided understanding of the laws (ask ATF Consumer). If you're asked why you carry (by anyone, not just LEOs) you can come up with a plethora of answers from "because I can" to "because buying donuts for the cop I was carrying around became to cost prohibitive".

IANAL, and the preceding was just my opinion, based on my own study of the situation, speaking with current and former LEOs, reading the laws as written, and the experiences of many of the fine folks here on this board.

It really all boils down to this: If you have a legal, valid LTCH, they can go pound sand, and you can have any reason you wish for carrying.

For question 2, you may legally defend yourself up to and including deadly force when you feel yourself or someone else is in danger of serious bodily harm.

For example, a thug (even if it's a kid as has happened to another board member) pulls a knife, you may pull your gun (don't bring a knife to a gunfight). There are a whole slew of other "what if" scenarios that are valid uses of the threat of/deadly force. These are also situational, and as always, only valid until the threat is no longer viable. You may pull your gun on an attacker, but can't shoot them in the back as they run away screaming like a little girl. You may shoot an attacker until they are no longer a threat, but you can not shot them, stop, and then go back and put another round in their head to finish them off.

I hope this information helps.

 

[eldirector]

The below is all my opinion, for whatever that is worth!

1: If confronted by an officer when OC or CC, what do I say? What might he say? What if he says something that is incorrect? I am not against officers, my dad is one 30+years. I know what dad says but would like to hear more points of view and situations members have been through.

Am I being detained? Why? Obviously, the LEO can ask for your LTCH, and possibly for ID. I'd be tempted to provide both, just to be on my way with a minimal of fuss. If the LEO presses farther, I'd ask for the next up the food chain, and be prepared to wait for a while. Legally, if you are properly licensed and note doing anything illegal, then a quick LTCH check should be it.

2: When is the right time to use your firearm? I don't mean shoot someone, although that would be on the list. I am unclear of when a situation would be apporopriate-expose-posture-pull firearm. I know this is broad subject, hypotheticals would be cool too.

The only "use" for a firearm is shooting (my opinion). Expose, posture, pull, display, show-off, flash, etc... are not appropriate, and may possibly be illegal (let the "intimidation" debate begin!). Indiana law states you may shoot to prevent bodily injury or a serious violent felony to you or a 3rd party. So, if you or someone else is getting attacked, then draw and be prepared to fire. If the attack ends (attacker runs off, surrenders, etc...) before you get a shot off, then GREAT! If not, well, if you are not prepared to use your weapon in defense, you should not be carrying it (my opinion).

I would NEVER draw hoping only to scare someone. You MUST be prepared to fire, or you lose the advantage. You also go from "defense" to "aggravating the situation".

Here are your hypotheticals:
- Guys cuts you off in traffic: Can't show him your gun or shoot him
- Guy cuts you off, flips the bird, and yells obscenities: still can't show him your gun or shoot him (darn!)
- Same guy, but approaches your car: sorry, still can't! You can roll up your window and drive away, though....
- Same guy, but now tries to get in your car: occupied car? Check. Forcible Felony? Check. You now hove NO duty to retreat, so the law is on your side.
- Same guy, but now tries to pull you out of your car window: Occupied car? Check. Forcible Felony? Check. Serious Bodily Injury? Check. The law says you may use deadly force to protect yourself.
- Same guy, but this all happens to the lady in the car next to you: IC allows for the protection of a 3rd party as if it was you. Weather or not you intervene is up to you.

Yeah, my statements are WAY to broad. There are dozens/hundreds of threads on this board debating every little detail of these questions. Kinda hard to sum it all up in one post!

 

[coda80]

what if your in a gas station or somewhere similar in layout, and it gets robbed? you are in the isle behind the bad guy as he points a firearm at the clerk facing you. (his back would be to you).

 

[Hammerhead]

This is a SBI or Violent Felony for you or a third person and you would be covered up to and including deadly force.

A couple of years ago there was a story on the news where a guy was eating at KFC (-1 BK) and a guy came in and attempted an armed robbery. The customer was a legal carrier and pulled his gun and stuck it in the back of the robber's head, disarmed him and held him for police.

 

[abrumlev]

Very informative posts! Thanks guys

I had a situation similar to eldirector hypothetical traffic dealio happen a month or so ago.

I still debate with my friends who were in the car with me whether or not our response was ideal/legal.

We were going 2-3 mph under the speed limit and some guy came swerving around us doing 70+ mph and almost hit my friends mom's new car (chick mobile, jetta wagon haha). I was carrying my 1911 in the passenger seat and had two more friends in the rear seat. We both pull off the offramp and come to a stop 2 lanes apart. We were stuck behind a car. The guy starts screaming at us (our windows were tinted enough that he couldn't tell there were 4 rather large college students inside)

The driver of our car (also has his ltch) cracked the window to hear what he was saying (I believe he shouldn't have) and the guy then jumped out of his car and started coming at the car holding his hand in his coat pocket.

I handed our driver, whom I trust, my 1911 and told him to put it on the dash pointed away from anyone. The guy stopped dead in his tracks. He must not have believed it was real and started to come at the car again (about 10 feet from our car at this point). My driver then pointed the gun at the ground in front of him and told him to back up, get back in his car and leave. The crazy man relented and started screaming "guns are for pussies etc etc...come out and fight like a man" while returning to his car. The light turned green and we got the hell out of there so he couldn't follow us.

Looking back on it, the situation scares the hell out of me. It happened so quickly that I don't know how we could have dealt with it differently.


Just reinforced my beliefs that I need to do some training and reading on how better to avoid situations like this.

 

[smitty12b]

what if your in a gas station or somewhere similar in layout, and it gets robbed? you are in the isle behind the bad guy as he points a firearm at the clerk facing you. (his back would be to you).

This situation is very dangerous. While you are holding your gun on the bad guy, his buddy who came in earlier, will put one in your head. Situational awareness is paramount in this type of real life scenario.

 

[dholmtime]

Great post I know myself and others have wondered these same things and thank you for the amazon recommended readings links

 

[shibumiseeker]

Just reinforced my beliefs that I need to do some training and reading on how better to avoid situations like this.

This can not be emphasized enough. Often these situations happen so quickly that you have absolutely no time to think or even process that something is going on.

This, and the kinds of questions the OP are asking is why getting training is important when you make the decision to carry deadly force.

 

[finity]

Coach13,

Have you read the actual laws dealing with self-defense & firearms? If not that is a huge first step in your quest for knowledge.

If after reading those you have specific questions it would be easier for others to answer them at that time.

If you need pointed to those laws then read the FAQs (I think they're there) or just ask here & I would be glad to provide the links.

 

[Coach13]

Coach13,

Have you read the actual laws dealing with self-defense & firearms? If not that is a huge first step in your quest for knowledge.

If after reading those you have specific questions it would be easier for others to answer them at that time.

If you need pointed to those laws then read the FAQs (I think they're there) or just ask here & I would be glad to provide the links.

I have, but think they are kind of vauge in areas and open in others, not all of them but some. I kind of think, and learn, by application. Kind of like rules in football. IHSAA can make a clarification or change and distribute to coaches statewide. But when we go to the rules meeting Q's start flying and the interpretation and situations come out differently from the published text rule. This clears up a wide range of understanding and situations.

Good advise for those that haven't read them......

 

[finity]

Ok, then, here are my answers:

1: If confronted by an officer when OC or CC, what do I say?

You don't need to say anything. You don't need to inform him that you are carrying. If you want to then that’s OK but be prepared to be disarmed & you gun run for being stolen & getting it back at a minimum unloaded & possibly field stripped. All this is for officer safety, of course. I'm not saying it will always (or ever) happen but if you expect it & it doesn't then that's just a bonus.

If by "confronted" you mean he asks to see a LTCH then you should comply.

What if he says something that is incorrect?

If he says something that is incorrect & it has no real bearing on your interaction or is not unlawful then let it go. Otherwise, I would as calmly as possible try to set him straight. If that doesn't work then there's no reason to argue any further. It will only make things more difficult on you. Fight it later with his supervisors or the legal system, if necessary.

2: When is the right time to use your firearm? I don't mean shoot someone, although that would be on the list.

The only right time to "use" your firearm is when you reasonably believe that you or another person is in threat of serious bodily injury or going to be the victim of a forcible felony. Both of which are defined by law.

Serious bodily injury is defined as:

IC 35-41-1-25

"Serious bodily injury" defined
Sec. 25. "Serious bodily injury" means bodily injury that creates a substantial risk of death or that causes:
(1) serious permanent disfigurement;
(2) unconsciousness;
(3) extreme pain;
(4) permanent or protracted loss or impairment of the function of a bodily member or organ; or
(5) loss of a fetus.

Notice that it's not only fear of death that is required for a deadly force response. Simply being in danger of being knocked unconscious is grounds, too.

A forcible felony is defined as:

IC 35-41-1-11

"Forcible felony" defined
Sec. 11. "Forcible felony" means a felony that involves the use or threat of force against a human being, or in which there is imminent danger of bodily injury to a human being.

IOW, rape, kidnapping, robbery, murder (obviously), carjacking & home invasion (of which the last two are also specifically covered under a different section of the same self-defense law).

I am unclear of when a situation would be apporopriate-expose-posture-pull firearm. I know this is broad subject, hypotheticals would be cool too.

When you begin the "posturing" you could be in danger of actually contributing to the confrontation. The IC says that if you are a party to the confrontation ( “…has entered into combat with…”) you lose the ability to claim self-defense as a justification for the use of force to protect yourself. I’m not trying to say that’s what WILL happen but just to be mindful of that.

Simply exposing your firearm SHOULDN’T be a problem (as discussed in your other thread) since OC is completely legal in IN. As long as you are not actually communicating a threat but just non-chalantly & non-pointedly showing your gun intimidation SHOULDN’T be an issue.

I personally wouldn’t pull it until you are fairly certain that your situation meets the requirements to justify use of deadly force. There have been at least a couple of IN court cases which equate just pointing a firearm to protect your property with actually using deadly force (even though it seems to be fairly straight-forwardly allowed by IC 35-47-4-3, IMHO).

IC 35-47-4-3
Pointing firearm at another person
Sec. 3. (a) This section does not apply to a law enforcement officer who is acting within the scope of the law enforcement officer's official duties or to a person who is justified in using reasonable force against another person under:
(1) IC 35-41-3-2; or
(2) IC 35-41-3-3.
(b) A person who knowingly or intentionally points a firearm at another person commits a Class D felony. However, the offense is a Class A misdemeanor if the firearm was not loaded.

In all of the above you have to be able to articulate WHY you felt that the use of DF was reasonable & necessary. Get it straight in your mind when the line has been crossed before it actually happens.

These are just my personal opinions which mean absolutely nothing when it comes right down to it. YOU need to interpret the laws to make sure that YOU are comfortable with YOUR understanding of them. Unless (& even if) you talk to a lawyer who specializes in self-defense cases you won’t know for sure what the outcome of a SD situation will be.

 

[Hammerhead]

Just remember, if you are ever in a deadly force incident, don't leave the scene, call your lawyer and keep your bloody mouth shut.

 

[StandingReady]

There are some good points on here, and a few that I would shy away from. Basically, here is what I suggest:

If you encounter a police officer who is inquisitive about your firearm, open or concealed, you have to remember that you are required by law to provide ID, or verbally give ID of yourself that would be the same as on your ID (at least name and DOB). You also have to remember that the burden of proof of your LTCH is on you, and it clearly states that it must be in your possession to be valid, which also means you do have to show it.
Remember, most police officers are good, well intended officers, but there are some "scrubs" out there to say the least. If you get a bad one, take it up with his supervisor later or in some type of court proceeding. It is the safest, and best thought out situation.
If you are asked to submit it, IMO, just do it. As stated earlier, it will be checked for stolen status, and most likely returned to you unloaded (I haven't seen/heard of returned field stripped). If you are a law abiding citizen, then you don't have anything to worry about. If you CHOOSE not to hand it over, keep your hands visible, perhaps on the steering wheel, not just away from your firearm.

As far as using it, basically, again as stated earlier, you can point it/use it in defense of yourself or another person, if you are in fear for your/their safety. Please remember that you do take a chance of escalating the situation beyond what it MAY have escalated to otherwise, especially without adequate training and practice. Sometimes it is more beneficial, and safe, to be a good witness. If you don't think the situation will turn deadly or result in serious bodily injury, watch, remember, relay...

 

[finity]

If you encounter a police officer who is inquisitive about your firearm, open or concealed, you have to remember that you are required by law to provide ID, or verbally give ID of yourself that would be the same as on your ID (at least name and DOB). You also have to remember that the burden of proof of your LTCH is on you, and it clearly states that it must be in your possession to be valid, which also means you do have to show it.

I sort of disagree with the above portion of your post.

The only thing that the IC says about providing in way of ID for carrying a handgun is the LTCH. There is no other requirement (that I have seen) to provide another ID (or to even show the officer your LTCH immediately - see below). That is, unless you are being stopped for another violation. Then THAT violation requires you to provide ID.

Also, the IC says that the LTCH has to be in your possession while carrying BUT it also says that you can provide proof of a valid LTCH at ANY later time & all records of the arrest & other proceedings will be deleted. So, while it says you have to carry it, you really DON'T HAVE to carry it or even show it to the officer but it will obviously make life easier if you do. You'll have to show it to SOMEBODY eventually so you might as well get it over with as early as possible. OTOH, just because you forget your wallet at home doesn't mean you're getting automatically convicted for carrying without a LTCH.

IC 35-47-2-24
Indictment or information; defendant's burden to prove exemption or license; arrest, effect of production of valid license, or establishment of exemption
Sec. 24. (a) In an information or indictment brought for the enforcement of any provision of this chapter, it is not necessary to negate any exemption specified under this chapter, or to allege the absence of a license required under this chapter. The burden of proof is on the defendant to prove that he is exempt under section 2 of this chapter, or that he has a license as required under this chapter.
(b) Whenever a person who has been arrested or charged with a violation of section 1 of this chapter presents a valid license to the prosecuting attorney or establishes that he is exempt under section 2 of this chapter, any prosecution for a violation of section 1 of this chapter shall be dismissed immediately, and all records of an arrest or proceedings following arrest shall be destroyed immediately.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.

 

[Bill B]

I would suggest that beyond reading the I.C. you also look up case law and see what the courts have said about actual situations.
From my own sordid ordeal I have learned quite a bit such as:
There is no such thing as "brandishing" in Indiana law.
Intimidation means you are threating someone to prevent them from doing something legal.
A firearm being oc'ed is not being displayed and is not intimidation.
If you don't answer an officers questions he's gonna get curious.
If you know the law, and the officer doesn't he's might get pissed.
Small town PD's can be very corrupt.
Keep an attorney on retainer if you are going to carry.
Keep at least $1000 cash available for bail money if you are going to carry.
Attend a seminar or class on the law.
The NRA ain't gonna help.

 

[StandingReady]

By law, you have to ID yourself to any officer who wishes to ID you, and there is no "reason" necessary (i.e. traffic stop, etc). Even if you have your LTCH with you, that doesn't mean that you are the person on the permit (it does happen). Just showing the permit isn't enough, you have to verbally provide or give your ID to any officer who asks, or possibly face Failure to Identify charges. Additionally, my point to having the permit is avoiding the initial arrest or detainment. If you think pushing the issue is a good idea, I will tell you that providing the permit later to get the charges dropped is the harder way to go, and can easily be avoided.

 

[sj kahr k40]

By law, you have to ID yourself to any officer who wishes to ID you, and there is no "reason" necessary (i.e. traffic stop, etc). Even if you have your LTCH with you, that doesn't mean that you are the person on the permit (it does happen). Just showing the permit isn't enough, you have to verbally provide or give your ID to any officer who asks, or possibly face Failure to Identify charges. Additionally, my point to having the permit is avoiding the initial arrest or detainment. If you think pushing the issue is a good idea, I will tell you that providing the permit later to get the charges dropped is the harder way to go, and can easily be avoided.

I'm confused, are you saying that if I'm standing on a corner waiting on a ride and a LEO ask for my ID just because that I have to give it to them?

Can you please cite the IC for this because I don't think you are correct