Ricochet off of steel targets (??) New hand gun course.

[Chaz]

Hey Guys,
I was just at a shooting club meeting this evening where I want to get some hand gun shooting going. ( Tri-County Coon Hunters - trap shooting, skeet shooting, sporting clays, muzzleload rifle shooting, conservation club, horseshoe pitching ) They have a very nice range but no one does any "formal" hand gun shooting on the range. It's just open shooting and a once a month muzzle loaders shoot. Otherwise, they do mainly shot gun sports.
I went to a meeting to see how they would feel about having hand gun competition there. "No problem" as it were (but guess who the Chairman is, now?? ).

My initial feelings are that I need to get the word out, and interest up, so before I go biting off a big chunk and get all formal and stuff, I was going to start putting together some "fun shoots" to get the word out. My idea was to build (I own a welding/fab shop) a texas star and a dueling tree for starters and just get some friendly competition going. But to be honest, I'd really want to eventually step up to an IDPA competition but I figure starting out this way would be best.
So.... one of the MAIN questions put out to me tonite was "what about the ricochet" off a steel target?? Well....., ya got me. Can any of you tell me the "rule of thumb" a person needs to go by when shooting steel? We have pretty much space there but there is a road that's "kinda" close. ( click this for another view, I hope: https://mail-attachment.googleuserc...&sads=wnoB5EBZzl6h7UbBiIysEgr0CEc&sadssc=1z)I I was going to keep the calibers from rim-fire to .45 and no long guns. (except maybe .22's. Just not sure on that yet.)
Again, my first two ideas were shooting the Texas Star and Dueling Tree as they seem to be fun but, I am open for other "targets" and ideas. If you have any other ideas, I'm open. I have been to FNS @ MCF&G so I am aware of those but was just curious if you have any other cool ideas.
I'm also open to any other suggestions you may have!!!!!!! I will be looking for ideas and suggestions over the next couple months and hopefully get started in the Spring.
Thanx for the thoughts and suggestions in advance. It's greatly appreciated!

 

[midget]

general rule with hand guns,
23 feet minimum of distance, steel needs to be either 1/2" with a hardness of at least 400 or 3/8" with a hardness of at least 550...

 

[scowens]

Can you shoot into the woods? I was looking at the picture of your range from the link you posted? For the shoots I've been to, you need 180 deg berm coverage. I don't see that there, unless I'm missing something.

Even with .22 cal, there still could be ricochet's from steel. It just happens. There will be various people wanting to shoot the steel with various projectiles. The more 'hard' hits on the steel, the more chance of a ricochet. Keep your steel in good condition. It will disappoint some folks, but I'd much rather deal with disappointment, than blood, or an eye put out. My

Good luck in getting something going. You will have a blast! You'll be dog tired at the end of a shoot day, but you will look back on it and say, "oh yea!"

Take care.

 

[rockhopper46038]

I'm not a target maker (although one may be along shortly to provide you with some really good information), but in addition to what midget (and scowens) posted above, you want to make certain that the steel targets themselves either break away (for a texas star), swing away (on a dueling tree) or hang freely enough (steel plates on a frame) that a substantial amount of the impact energy is absorbed moving the target plate. Solidly bolted plates that don't move would need to be angled to prevent direct ricochet back at the shooters (in my opinion).

 

[42769vette]

kimball will be here shortly to answer you questions, but to my understanding

thickness or the steel doesn't have near as much to do with richochets as the hardness of the steel. for 45acp i would defintally go with ar500 steel.

send bobcat steel on here a pm. he knows alot more about this stuff than i do

 

[esrice]

It sounds like you need to have a 30-minute phone conversation with Kimball so he can get you up to speed. Its not as simple as "cut this, weld that, viola".

Bobcat Steel - INGunOwners

Good luck!

 

[RangeJunkie]

It sounds like you need to have a 30-minute phone conversation with Kimball so he can get you up to speed. Its not as simple as "cut this, weld that, viola".

Bobcat Steel - INGunOwners

Good luck!

Agreed, I have many targets from Kimball and have been impressed.

 

[ZbornacSVT]

Finally saw this.....

The short answer is you want 3/8" AR500 for your applications. We can hook you up there.

Hardness combats velocity, thickness resists energy. AR400 would be minimum recommended for pistol and AR500 for rifle. We focus on the 3/8" AR500 as it will suffice for most applications out there.

General rules of thumb are to stay 10yds out on pistol and 100yds on rifle, but there are ways to bend that rule.....with the through hardened steels, they are actually hard nough to fragment the bullet on impact. AR500 is roughly 4 times harder than standard steel.

I feel like I am jumping all over the place, maybe because it is almost 1AM?.....I'll revisit this tomorrow when my brain is actually working, ha!

Feel free to give us a call if you want. More than likely you will catch Lisa. 406-570-4373

 

[downrange72]

.... More than likely you will catch Lisa. 406-570-4373

She is he brains and the Braun of the operation anyway

 

[Chaz]

Thanx for the info guys! I can certainly use the "schoolin"!!
I appreciate the help with the type steel Kimball. I may look to you for some but I have a couple steel suppliers, that supply me, that I imagine I can get it from. But if not, I'll give ya a buzz. You are about as close to me as they are. (I use to use O'Neil!! Now I get mine out of Cincy.)
Obviously, I'm trying to do this on a shoestring and with a full service weld and fab shop (altho I am more of a starving artist), I think doing it myself will save a buck. My goal is to build these and basically donate them to the club (good faith gesture). Then if things start to take off, start charging a small fee and give it to the club so I can start getting some funding for doing more. (You know, much like how our taxes work... ) But in the beginning, I'm just wanting to get guys signed up to the club - $25.00 a year - and then just shoot. I know I am probably leaving some money on the table but..... it happens. I'm use to it.
I have a little time between now and the first shoot which I am thinking will be the third Sunday in April, TENTITIVELY. I want to offset the dates from other shoots as much as possible to hopefully be able to draw people from other ranges, altho I know distance can be an issue.
Again, if ya got ANY suggestions, by all means.......

Thanx again.

 

[Chaz]

Can you shoot into the woods? I was looking at the picture of your range from the link you posted?

Nope. The range is the range. I'm just lucky these ol' farts are open to doing this!! That's kinda why I need to move slowly. They did talk about building a berm to the East between the range and the road. That would be to the right of the picture by the trees. (https://mail-attachment.googleuserc...339&sads=wnoB5EBZzl6h7UbBiIysEgr0CEc&sadssc=1)
I also proposed berms to create shooting bays against the 100 yd. backstop so we can do IDPA "eventually", and they seemed to be OK with it as well. I just have to build the pistol shooting members up for them to see value in it. THEN, I want to see what it takes to do IDPA. (I'm afraid I may be in for more than I want!! Don't tell my girlfriend! She's going to kill me when she finds out!!! )

I talked with my steel guy and he also mentioned T-1. (???) I told him what I was wanting to do and he is pricing some right now. (I'm getting out the grease) I was hoping maybe he knew of someplace I could pick up "drops" to make targets from. (long shot!)
I also mentioned 1/4" and 3/16" for doing .22's. (not sure which) I figure I want to include as many people as possible so I can "addict them"! Chances are, they will want to upgrade calibers in a short time. But I figure I need to make the targets light enough for the .22's to do their thing. But, they would be for .22's ONLY!

Thanx again guys!

 

[chizzle]

Thanx for the info guys! I can certainly use the "schoolin"!!
I appreciate the help with the type steel Kimball. I may look to you for some but I have a couple steel suppliers, that supply me, that I imagine I can get it from. But if not, I'll give ya a buzz. You are about as close to me as they are. (I use to use O'Neil!! Now I get mine out of Cincy.)
Obviously, I'm trying to do this on a shoestring and with a full service weld and fab shop (altho I am more of a starving artist), I think doing it myself will save a buck. My goal is to build these and basically donate them to the club (good faith gesture). Then if things start to take off, start charging a small fee and give it to the club so I can start getting some funding for doing more. (You know, much like how our taxes work... ) But in the beginning, I'm just wanting to get guys signed up to the club - $25.00 a year - and then just shoot. I know I am probably leaving some money on the table but..... it happens. I'm use to it.
I have a little time between now and the first shoot which I am thinking will be the third Sunday in April, TENTITIVELY. I want to offset the dates from other shoots as much as possible to hopefully be able to draw people from other ranges, altho I know distance can be an issue.
Again, if ya got ANY suggestions, by all means.......

Thanx again.

I was saying the same thing about 5 years ago when we started Friday Night Steel...

http://www.indyrange.org/Friday_Night_Steel.php

Here's how we started:

1) Pool some money to buy some targets. 4 of us pooled $280 and I built the first set of poppers. If I had it to do over again, I would have built 4 of the tripod stands / targets we use now.
2) Pick a date and time (we got "stuck" with Friday nights, and it worked out great).
3) Charge a nominal fee (I think we started with $5 per person)
4) Keep score. I didn't initially want to keep score (only now do I understand how wrong I was), but Brad and Ryan (good friends) made me do it.
5) Stand back and enjoy! We saw continued growth, and kept plowing the match fees back into buying better and better targets.
6) Make sure you give the club something for the use of the range! 50% of our match fees go towards the club to help pay insurance, taxes, electricity, etc. Matches that don't make any money, or contribute anything to the club's bottom line are much easier to get rid of.

Feel free to come to a Friday Night Steel match some time (or any Steel Challenge match), as it will give you good ideas on what to do, and what not to do.

 

[Chaz]

Yeah, I was there, I think, in Oct. or Nov. and met some good guys!! I helped set up and was looking at the targets as I was planning this even back then. I did like the tri-pods. They may be one that I will build but I need to bite off and digest the first two I have planned. I REALLY like the dueling tree as it can be used a couple different ways. I may even make different styles, configurations and target styles. And a person can also have fun resetting them .
I will try to get to up there for another shoot before April to see if I can get some ideas on other targets to build - if I can come up with the "cake". It's just that this "Cold SH*T" doesn't do me no favors.
I also need to start getting names and emails of people interested so I can get the ball rolling with a big push. I travel in a few different circles that i hope I can bring people together from for some shoots.

BTW, for those who are following this thread, the backstop is 100 yards long so that would make the covered shooting area 100 yards long as well.
What is MCF&G length?? Would 100 yards be enough for 5 stages??

 

[ZbornacSVT]

T1/A514 is half as hard as AR500, fyi.....

I wouldnt use less than 3/8" AR500 for anything that will see continuous use.

 

[Chaz]

Cool. Thanx, got it. But is there any other steel worth using? Just curious in case I can scrounge some up. If not, ar500 it is!
I appreciate the info!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Field King]

Cool. Thanx, got it. But is there any other steel worth using? Just curious in case I can scrounge some up. If not, ar500 it is!
I appreciate the info!!!!!!!!!!!

Stick with the AR500 or AR400 minimum as suggested above, moving down to standard carbon steel to save money creates what you are trying to avoid (ricochet), unhardened steel quickly gets pockmarks from being hit and that creates un predictable spray pattern (ricochet)!

 

[Chaz]

Yup, ar500 it is.
I just got my quote back.... Pricey stuff!! But, that was expected. It's just going to take a little time for this ol' blacksmith to put that kinda cake together.
I may have to look to Bobcat.

 

[cedartop]

Yup, ar500 it is.
I just got my quote back.... Pricey stuff!! But, that was expected. It's just going to take a little time for this ol' blacksmith to put that kinda cake together.
I may have to look to Bobcat.

I just ordered another IPSC target and stand from Bobcat to use in classes this year. I have been very happy with the product and service.

 

[rimfire]

Bobcat AR500 steel is the best. We shot two torso targets with 30-06, .308, 7.62x39, 5.56 centerfire rifle at 200 yds without a scratch. We put card board underneath the targets to see what happened when the rounds hit the steel. They turned into small fragments and made tiny holes in front of the cardboard. I have shot my AR500 steel torsos and special order AR500 Zombies with .50 cal black powder at 100 yds with the same result. The rounds disintegrated when they hit the steel. We will be shooting them with pistols at an upcoming club shoot. I have never had any damage to my Bobcat Steel AR500 targets. The steel targets I bought from other sources, before I started buying AR 500 steel from Bobcat steel did not hold up.

I highly recommend buying Bobcat steel. Kimbal is a good guy and has gone out of his way to give me information that has helped me sell shooting steel to our range officials.

 

[ZbornacSVT]

Thanks for the kind words Rob!