Rifle vs Handgun: The Sufficient Power Argument

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  • Vanguard.45

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    Howdy once again, INGOers!

    Got a bit of a dilemma.

    Have an opportunity (once my kids gave me the blessing, of course) to trade an LWRC piston rifle in .223/5.56 and another handgun for three HK USPs in .40 S&W. These three USPs I have owned before (twice before to be exact) and they are 1990s vintage guns. My dilemma is as follows:

    I realize that the rifle calibers have substantially more power than handguns. One need only see what the .223 did to that guy's arm in the Kyle Rittenhouse incident to recognize the devastating power of the .223 compared with a handgun.

    However, most service-caliber handguns seem to offer plenty of "stopping power" in incidents one sees on "the YouTubes" where police or citizens engage threats. They certainly lack the range of rifles, but I wonder if I would ever need such range in a traditional encounter, and I often wonder if the scenarios one plays out in one's head where we, the citizenry, are engaging enemies at protracted distances, which are the types of potential/ improbable incidents many use to justify purchasing these rifles in the first place, are either probably or possible?

    Bottom line is whether or not the excess power of a rifle is NEEDED compared to the power of a handgun in most real-life situations? Do rifles do THAT much more for you compared with handguns in real defensive situations (taking "SHTF/Civil War/WROL" scenarios out of the equation)? Seems like most shootings involving handguns I have seen indicates service-caliber handguns do a pretty good job of neutralizing threats quickly.

    I loved the USPs when I owned them but decided at the time that I NEEDED a rifle since, you know, the world was spiraling out of control. However, I also recognize that handguns are much easier to apply to real world self-defense since I can actually carry the handgun with me and don't often have my rifles with me outside the house? Being in law enforcement, my primary has always been my handgun with long guns receiving substantially less training time.

    So, what say you? Are handguns enough, or does every good gun owner need the extra power and versatility offered by a good rifle?

    Thanks for your responses in advance!
     
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    Vanguard.45

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    Having both would be preferred.
    If that's not a possibility having one that you can have on you most of the time is what I would choose.
    So, in actuality, I have a handgun (GLOCK 19x) and another rifle kitted out in a similar fashion (BCM Recce 16 with the same grip, same VFG, same sling attachment points, etc. as the LWRC), but I have this odd habit of selling "sets" of things off if I don't have at least two of something. Thus, if I got rid of the LWRC, I would likely sell off the BCM and get either another couple of handguns or get something like a Mark 23 to go with the USP 40s. Just my own mental illness, I know. Just trying to rationalize getting rid of a VERY nice rifle, and the GLOCK 19x, in exchange for three USPs in 40.
     

    Jaybird1980

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    So, in actuality, I have a handgun (GLOCK 19x) and another rifle kitted out in a similar fashion (BCM Recce 16 with the same grip, same VFG, same sling attachment points, etc. as the LWRC), but I have this odd habit of selling "sets" of things off if I don't have at least two of something. Thus, if I got rid of the LWRC, I would likely sell off the BCM and get either another couple of handguns or get something like a Mark 23 to go with the USP 40s. Just my own mental illness, I know. Just trying to rationalize getting rid of a VERY nice rifle, and the GLOCK 19x, in exchange for three USPs in 40.
    I would not get rid of both rifles and only have pistols if I didn't have to, but I don't have a mental illness.

    Ok that's not true, I probably do have a mental illness.
     

    Vanguard.45

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    Back to the power thing.

    How important is rifle power vs. handgun power in likely defensive situations? Obviously, rifle power is more, but is handgun power actually as impotent as the rifle crowd implies?

    I am currently comparing .223 to .40 S&W but insert whatever caliber you prefer in a carry handgun.
     

    jerrob

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    I would not get rid of both rifles and only have pistols if I didn't have to, but I don't have a mental illness.

    Ok that's not true, I probably do have a mental illness.
    Jay, I was just about to "report" this post, but then I read your second sentence, lol.

    Vanguard45, I like your set of 3 guideline, I just have a different version, rifle, shotgun, pistol, rinse and repeat as budget allows. Use the guideline "in addition to" and not "instead of".
    But damn, 3 USPs would be freakin' sweeeeeeet!
     

    Vanguard.45

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    Jay, I was just about to "report" this post, but then I read your second sentence, lol.

    Vanguard45, I like your set of 3 guideline, I just have a different version, rifle, shotgun, pistol, rinse and repeat as budget allows. Use the guideline "in addition to" and not "instead of".
    But damn, 3 USPs would be freakin' sweeeeeeet!
    Yeah, the 2 of the USPs are from 1998 and one is from 1994. Sentimental value more than anything. LOVE my LWRC and BCM rifles, and I love the GLOCK 19x, but am conflicted about whether I want to get those USPs back. Their triggers are heavy, but I know they are bombproof guns. So are my rifles and the GLOCK for that matter, sooooo.
     

    Vanguard.45

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    At any rate, would you feel underPOWERed if all you had during a home invasion was a handgun, or would you feel confident the handgun could put down a threat in a timely and efficient way?
     

    Vanguard.45

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    I'm totally lost in this thread...

    Why would you settle for any puny handgun, if you could have a rifle in the same circumstances?

    Piston gun, 40 cal...

    No, just no...
    Understood. Rifles are probably the way to go. Why do you believe that handguns in service-calibers are "puny"? Like I was saying, it seems like, according to many police shootings documented on video, handguns do a pretty good job of dropping offenders quickly. Does one actually NEED the power of a rifle, or are handgun rounds effective enough?
     

    Jaybird1980

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    Understood. Rifles are probably the way to go. Why do you believe that handguns in service-calibers are "puny"? Like I was saying, it seems like, according to many police shootings documented on video, handguns do a pretty good job of dropping offenders quickly. Does one actually NEED the power of a rifle, or are handgun rounds effective enough?
    Because most service caliber pistols are puny compared to rifles.

     

    Vanguard.45

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    Because most service caliber pistols are puny compared to rifles.

    But are they puny compared to the amount of power one needs to reliably stop threats?

    The slippery slope of the power argument could have people claiming that the only acceptable caliber is the 50 BMG or the .460 Weatherby Magnum since most other calibers are "puny" by comparison.

    I agree that the rifle calibers are far superior to the .40. Just trying to find out from you all if the .40 brings enough power to the table to justify getting rid of a rifle and still feeling like I have enough firepower to handle whatever realistic business might arise at the homestead?
     

    Jaybird1980

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    But are they puny compared to the amount of power one needs to reliably stop threats?

    The slippery slope of the power argument could have people claiming that the only acceptable caliber is the 50 BMG or the .460 Weatherby Magnum since most other calibers are "puny" by comparison.

    I agree that the rifle calibers are far superior to the .40. Just trying to find out from you all if the .40 brings enough power to the table to justify getting rid of a rifle and still feeling like I have enough firepower to handle whatever realistic business might arise at the homestead?
    IMO, No .40 is not powerful enough to justify getting rid of a .223 in terms of protection.

    The good thing is you don't have to justify it. You just have to live with your choices. The chances are slim that you will need anything to protect your home, but if you do you will want more not less.

    It also comes down to where you live and layout also. Close neighbors, construction material etc etc.

    This is a quote from the article I posted that stood out to me,

    "In this free-for-all, the assailant had, in fact, been struck 14 times. Any one of six of these wounds – in the heart, right lung, left lung, liver, diaphragm, and right kidney – could have produced fatal consequences, “in time,” Gramins emphasizes".

    Would the guy have stayed in the fight if those hits were from a rifle?
    Maybe, but probably not.
     

    nucular

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    The sole purpose of a pistol is to give you cover while you get to your rifle.

    But seriously, HKs are nice and all but I wouldn't trade anything I liked for .40 caliber in today's world. IMO, .40s have outlived their purpose when you compare it to modern day 9mm or 10mm.
     
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    But are they puny compared to the amount of power one needs to reliably stop threats?

    The slippery slope of the power argument could have people claiming that the only acceptable caliber is the 50 BMG or the .460 Weatherby Magnum since most other calibers are "puny" by comparison.

    I agree that the rifle calibers are far superior to the .40. Just trying to find out from you all if the .40 brings enough power to the table to justify getting rid of a rifle and still feeling like I have enough firepower to handle whatever realistic business might arise at the homestead?
    The entire argument really is, as you said, a slippery slope, and the slope slides both ways.

    If you phrase the question as "good enough", you can go down pretty darn low. Properly placed 22lr will kill a human being just fine. But if I have a 9mm pistol that I can comfortably and reliably operate, I'll go with that over 22lr. Under the same conditions (something I can comfortably, accurately, and reliably operate, and holds sufficient ammo for the threat I am likely to face) if I have a 223 semi-auto rifle, I'll take that over the 9mm; if I have a 12 guage I'll take that over the 223 (assuming indoor distances only, of course.) To take it to the extreme, if I had a 50 BMG gun that I could reliably operate, comfortably maneuver indoors with, and afford sufficient ammunition for regular practice, I honestly probably wouldn't want anything less for home defense (except for the reason of concerns with overpenetration, of course.)

    No matter how you slice it, you're giving something up if you go with the .40 S&W instead of the 223. Now, the odds of having to defend yourself against a threat, and shooting that threat with a .40 S&W in a place where the .40 doesn't stop the threat, but a 223 would have, are incredibly low, so what you're giving up may not be much. But that possibility does exist, and if you are trying to say "Since a .40 S&W is powerful enough to get the job done, having a 223 would be superfluous, therefore I'm not really giving anything up" I would say that's not an accurate statement. If you go more powerful than a 50 BMG, that would be completely superfluous for the purposes of stopping any human or animal threat you could conceivably face, but anything lower than that is simply going to be a trade-off. That doesn't make it a bad decision; that trade-off can be offset by lighter recoil, less chance of over-penetration, more affordable ammo, greater magazine capacity, and a host of other factors. Or it can simply be that you like the other gun better, and you'd rather live your life, and own and shoot what you like, and are fine with risking the infinitesimal chance that you would ever be in a situation that where .40 failed to save your life but 223 would have succeeded. And that's perfectly fine, I would just say, don't try to fool yourself into thinking that you aren't giving anything up at all, in terms of effectiveness, because you are.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    You cause damage by disrupting tissue. With the exception of a few organs, handgun bullets can only disrupt tissue they touch. Rifles bullets can cause remote wounding, disrupting tissue that wasn't directly touched, due to the shock overwhelming the elasticity of many more tissues in the body. Pinch the skin on the back of your hand, lift, let go. It returns to position without injury, you did not overcome it's elasticity. Pull it high enough and/or fast enough and eventually you create a wound, though, because you overcome that ability to return.

    So, without a doubt, rifles cause more damage and disrupt more tissue. This lets you get good shot placement easier because you don't have to be as close to gibbly bits that matter, plus you make it harder for the body to control bleeding via swelling.

    Add in rifles are just easier to hit with under stress and shot placement tends to be better. So, yes, they are 'better' in most senses. That doesn't mean pistols are insufficient, obviously they aren't as they are very effective in many, many instances. It just means you have to be much better with the pistol to reliably get the same end result.
     
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