Roll Your Own SD Quest

[mssmith44]

A consideration for high reliability ammo is to use a primer and bullet to case sealer to prevent contaminants from neutralizing powder and/or primer.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

... it doesn't mean you'd beat a case with Hornady, Speer or anyone else. There are several additional arguments to get you convicted/sued.

I don't think anyone is making that argument. Nothing is everything, but everything is something. Not only do I investigate shootings, I have been on both sides of the investigation. I am the guy who takes the findings of the investigation to the prosecutor's office. I have a recommendation on if charges should be filed or not, but ultimately it's up to them. I have worked with Ayoob professionally but we arrived at our conclusions independently before I worked with him. I say this so you understand I do have some recognized level of expertise in this arena.

Some shootings are so obviously justified that questions about the weapon and ammo will never come up. I've had a self defense shooting that was so obvious the prosecutor cleared the person before they provided a statement. Most aren't that obvious, have witnesses, video, a very clear bad guy very clearly committing a forcible felony, and the bad guy's gun at his feet. Many are, although justified, tougher to suss out. Using factory ammo helps me help you, both in the investigation and in the prosecutor's office for reasons already laid out.

Using factory ammunition that's validated by industry recognized experts, and which conform to expected forensic results, can only help you. Particularly in civil court. Using hand loads may not hurt you, but it only has the potential to do so. While I reload myself, and should the zombie apocalypse come up on us I also trust my loads. But as long as civil court remains a thing, and quality factory ammunition exists, I see no gain and a potential loss in not utilizing cartridges vetted by industry leaders.

Jury is also still out until a collection of court decisions based on that very fact could be culled into meaningful data... I truly would enjoy reading them.

If you expect to read a court decision that says "because of ammo" you'll not find anything. That's not how court decisions read. First, juries don't have to explain their reasoning. Second, that's not how trial judges or appeals are written up To quote an attorney in that arena once again:

A reason why..."show me the cases" isn't really dispositive here is because you don't get a written opinion from a trial judge in a criminal trial that's later published in various reporters, nor do you get a similar written report of the jury's thought process. Another reason why ..."show me the cases" isn't really dispositive here is because the "the prosecutor talked about the murder weapon having a Punisher skull/TiN bbl/Gadget/fiber optic sights" issue probably won't constitute grounds for an appeal and thus is unlikely to show up in case law....I'm aware of a case where a shooter inscribed a particular symbol into the wooden grip of his revolver. Did we ask the witness used to lay a foundation for that gun about that at trial? Yup. Is that an improper comment meant to do nothing more than inflame the jury? Nope, that's simply asking the witness to describe the weapon the jury later brought with them to the jury room. Did we comment on it during closing arguments? Yup. Was our objective to use that inscription to make the jury's decision to convict easier? Absolutely. Are you going to find in the case of State v. ****head, 123 S.W.3d 456 (2015) a paragraph from the Court of Appeals saying "yeah, it's totally cool to have a stupid carving in your revolver grip" or "no, don't carve dumb stuff into your revolver grip because that makes it automatically murder?" No, because that's not the issue that was appealed.

Note that this was in response to a question about engravings, modifications, etc. However the same legal reasoning applies to hand loads. If you aren't in the "courtroom industry", so to speak, you have no way to comb through case law and glean the information you're requesting. Facts of the case aren't handled like case law is handled.

 

[1stLast&Always]

I hear you, and follow. How do they know its factory ammo if you used factory ammo cases and components?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I hear you, and follow. How do they know its factory ammo if you used factory ammo cases and components?

1) Interviews/depositions. Remember depositions are under oath, and perjury charges can apply. In a civil depo, the questions can be very wide ranging and seemingly unrelated to the question of how justified you were. I was asked about hobbies, if I had Facebook, if I used my cell phone after the shooting, etc.

2) Forensics. I honestly don't know how the lab nerds do what lab nerds to, so I can't intelligently talk about that aspect of it. I do know they *can* tell, though, as the head lab nerd brought it up in Homicide School.

Oh, and potentially just from seeing your reloading set up. If the shooting were in your house, say a home invasion, there's going to be a search warrant issued for your house. The search warrant is going to list something like: "Ammunition, both spent and unspent, and components of ammunition to include spent bullets, shell casings..." That could then raise the question.

 

[rhino]

A brass case that has been fired more than once will have more marks and signs of strain than a case that has been fired only one time. It will also have at least two extractor marks on the rim.

A loader might be able to minimize external markings by tumbling the loaded ammo, but there will likely still be signs of multiple deformations on the interior if someone cares to examine it closely.

 

[1stLast&Always]

Excellent info! As a reloader, I did know about the extractor/wear marks. Thanks everyone for making the argument clear. Huge sign says "Don't use reloads for SD!"

 

[cosermann]

Yep, pretty much.

Here's a thread for reference that details a few cases where reloaded ammunition was a factor at trial (and one where using factory ammunition allowed a false accusation to be easily refuted) - Cases Where Handloads Caused Problems in Court by Mas Ayoob

 

[1stLast&Always]

Thanks for the links. Will dig deeper for this too in the event its discussed again. Maybe I'm strange but I like reading cases!

 

[Drail]

I have seen so many stupid screw ups on factory ammo over the years that I would never trust it to be 100% reliable. Cases with primers smashed in sideways or backwards. Cases with no primer flash hole. Rounds with no powder. No thanks. A handloader can produce ammo that is much better than any mass produced factory loads. The factories won't even guarantee their rounds will fire. Ask any of them. Not good enough for SD. when it absolutely positively MUST work.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Nothing mechanical is 100%, but quality carry ammo has very high QC using both technology and human checks, as does military contract ammo. All factory loads aren't equal, some budget steel cased bulk ammo isn't going to have the same checks as something like Federal HST does.

If you're concerned, a quick visual inspection and weighing of each cartridge prior to loading will eliminate the potential for the vast majority of issues. Having fired thousands of rounds, and seeing countless thousands, of rounds of Federal factory ammo fired without issue I'm not particularly concerned about it's reliability. I shoot about 6k-10k rounds of factory ammo from Speer or Federal a year with zero issues for decades.

 

[Sniper 79]

I carry what I load and shoot at the range. I know the capability and reliability. Not going to pay for fancy packaging.

Stop the quest and get to living life. All pistols suck equally for self defense.

Not buying into scarry court room bull pucky either.

 

[rhino]

I carry what I load and shoot at the range. I know the capability and reliability. Not going to pay for fancy packaging.

Stop the quest and get to living life. All pistols suck equally for self defense.

Not buying into scarry court room bull pucky either.

I wouldn't be that concerned over potential legal issues either, but have your verified that the muzzle velocity from your gun matches the manufacturer's specs for proper expansion of the bullets you use? Too slow and it's essentially FMJ. Too fast and it can expand too quickly and prevent adequate penetration.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I wouldn't be that concerned over potential legal issues either...

It's not an issue right up until it is. I find it telling that those who are involved in the court system, criminal or civil, and have actual experience in this realm universally recommend against the practice. That means we're either all the ammo illuminati, tricking you into spending $18 on a box of 50 HST rounds OR there's a valid concern.

Most of you will never shoot anyone. It won't matter. Most of you will never find themselves in a depo with a lawyer looking at how big a check he can ring out of you on the other side. It won't matter. But somebody will.

 

[rhino]

It's not an issue right up until it is. I find it telling that those who are involved in the court system, criminal or civil, and have actual experience in this realm universally recommend against the practice. That means we're either all the ammo illuminati, tricking you into spending $18 on a box of 50 HST rounds OR there's a valid concern.

Most of you will never shoot anyone. It won't matter. Most of you will never find themselves in a depo with a lawyer looking at how big a check he can ring out of you on the other side. It won't matter. But somebody will.

Perhaps I was lacking in clarity. I actually meant to imply not as concerned as I would be about performance of the projectile if it's moving to slowly or too fast upon impact.

My carry ammo is and always has been factory (currently Speer Gold Dot 9mm 124gr +P).

 

[NKBJ]

The Assistant Prosecutor:
Ah, yes, Mister Hickok.
Did you load those 3/8" balls into your revolvers or did someone else?

Bwahahahaha!

 

[bgcatty]

It's not an issue right up until it is. I find it telling that those who are involved in the court system, criminal or civil, and have actual experience in this realm universally recommend against the practice. That means we're either all the ammo illuminati, tricking you into spending $18 on a box of 50 HST rounds OR there's a valid concern.

Most of you will never shoot anyone. It won't matter. Most of you will never find themselves in a depo with a lawyer looking at how big a check he can ring out of you on the other side. It won't matter. But somebody will.

BehindBluel’s words of wisdom here are right, did I say RIGHT ON! If you are ever involved in a SD shooting, even in what you may perceive as a “good shooting” to use the common vernacular, you will end up in a malestrom of legal activity with police, prosecutors and attorneys such that you will come to believe your head will explode!

To say “I wouldn’t be that concerned over potential legal issues either... With all due respect, is a tremendous “head in the sand” comment.

 

[rhino]

Yes, my head is firmly in the sand.

 

[sloughfoot]

Nobody defending their life is ever responsible for terminal ballistics. If somebody needs to be shot, shoot them. As many times as necessary to stop them. If you have a bazooka, shoot them with your bazooka. All this fretting about this and that goes away when you are so scared you can't feel the trigger and you cannot hear your shots going off.

I understand all the academic study but when it gets real, it really gets real, really. But WTH do I know?

The aftermath is only somewhat under your control. Depending.

 

[JohnArgent]

Lot of good advise I think that people only partially hear what is being said and go off on a tangent.

list of points
1. Has any one ever been convicted because of reloaded ammo in a self defence shooting?

Cannot find any cases the closest is a case listed by Ayoob about an officer that used reload 45acp
chased down a drunk the drunk attacked him tried to take his gun from him and caused it to discharge
in his face. The attorney did used the more lethal ammo argument but eventually lost.
Long Painful court case.

2. Is it illegal to use reloads for self defence? No

3. If you use a reload can it affect crime scene data? Yes

So what conclusions can we draw

If you use a reload it can cause evidence issues such as GSR testing
you claim it happened at 3 feet they say 15 feet, you say but GSR sorry cant test
it your ammo and data is tainted.

IS this likely to happen probably not but why give some scum bag attorney any ammo
to use against you