Russia vs. Ukraine Part 2

[actaeon277]

Out of curiosity, are there anti ship missiles today that can get through the armor belt of an Iowa class battleship.

Maybe we should have built a few Montanas.

And no. I don't think any missiles will get through the armored citadel.
BUT, the entire ship is NOT armored like that.

Armored citadel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The US adopted a "All or Nothing" armor plan.
So there are areas that can be hurt.
Also, electronic masts (radio, ECM, Radar) can be hurt.

Then, there's also a problem in that the Iowas in the 80s were heavily modified.
And the crews made some "homemade" modification that might accidentally introduce weak points in the armor scheme.



And, as was mentioned, BBs are torpedo magnets.
And while subs are not "guaranteed" to penetrate an anti-sub defensive screen, in the sub/anti-sub fight, the advantage goes to the subs.

Also air assets can carry torpedoes, thought generally, those are lightweight torpedoes.
AND, air assets can be tasked to carry "bunker busters", and other penetrating bombs.


And remember what happened to the Yamato.
And it was MUCH more of a BB than an Iowa.

 

[BigMoose]

ISW is calling the Russian Moskva Cruiser sunk.. the flagship of the Baltic Fleet...

Institute for the Study of War

The Russian missile cruiser Moskva, flagship of the Black Sea Fleet, sunk on April 14 after a likely Ukrainian anti-ship missile strike on April 13. Ukrainian forces claimed to strike the Moskva with two Neptune anti-ship cruise missiles on April 13. The

www.understandingwar.org

Interestingly.. while focusing on cleaning out Mariupol, Russian security behind the lines has been stretched thin, and that an insurgency has developed around Melitopol, causing significant issues.

Otherwise it continues to be a nasty conventional slugfest. Something we haven't seen in a long while. Particularly one that wasn't one sided. While there have been copious amounts of counter insurgency actions, we haven't seen a stand up fight like this in AGES, and definitely none with the level of tech we have now. You really have to go back to the 80s Iran Iraq war to find one evenly matched. Which is amazing considering the Russians are on one side!

 

[actaeon277]

Damn.

 

[Keith_Indy]

ISW is calling the Russian Moskva Cruiser sunk.. the flagship of the Baltic Fleet...

Institute for the Study of War

The Russian missile cruiser Moskva, flagship of the Black Sea Fleet, sunk on April 14 after a likely Ukrainian anti-ship missile strike on April 13. Ukrainian forces claimed to strike the Moskva with two Neptune anti-ship cruise missiles on April 13. The

www.understandingwar.org

.

Some bits of interest in that update…

Ukrainian officials admitted on April 14 that Russian forces captured “some” personnel from Ukraine's 36th Marine Brigade during their breakout from the Ilyich plant to link up with Ukrainian forces in the Azovstal plant in eastern Mariupol on April 13.

Andryushenko said Russian forces are concentrated on capturing the Mariupol port in the southwest with heavy air and artillery support, contradicting Russian claims to have previously captured the port.

Local social media reports confirmed Ukrainian claims that Ukrainian Special Forces destroyed a bridge near Izyum while a Russian military convoy was crossing it on April 13.

Ukrainian partisans have likely been active in the Melitopol region since at least mid-March. The Ukrainian Resistance Center reported that “unknown patriots” killed 70 Russian personnel in Melitopol on April 12, while the Military Intelligence Directorate (GUR) reported that Ukrainian partisans killed 70 personnel in the area from March 20 to April 12—a more likely report.[22] ISW has previously assessed that growing Ukrainian partisan activities are likely tying down Russian forces in the region but we have not previously seen reports of specific Ukrainian partisan actions.

• Russian forces will likely continue ongoing offensive operations in the Donbas region, feeding reinforcements into the fight as they become available rather than gathering reinforcements and replacements for a more coordinated and coherent offensive.

 

[Keith_Indy]

Damn.


View attachment 194885

When evaluating the claims of both sides, an accident onboard seems slightly more likely than a new anti ship missile. If the U.S. Navy has problems with shipboard rediness, I can only imagine what state the Russian navy is in.

 

[actaeon277]

Meanwhile in the US..

Historic World War II ship partly sinking in Buffalo, New York

Mayor Byron W. Brown said the ship was taking on water because of a major hull breach.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[actaeon277]

Out of curiosity, are there anti ship missiles today that can get through the armor belt of an Iowa class battleship.

Maybe we should have built a few Montanas.

Here's a bit about missiles and BB's armor
The first part is about German WWII armor piercing guided bomb, and then about 5:20 talks about styx/silkworm missiles.

 

[actaeon277]

I still remember the USS Stark getting hit by two Exocets. I remember thinking well...apparently the Phalanx isn't all that great. Apparently they had it turned off. Crazy stuff.

Another problem, though not to blame in the Stark's attack, is the Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates had ONE CIWS (Close In Weapon System).
So.. the ship had to be oriented correctly for the CIWS to engage a missile. The superstructure blocked any defense on missiles fired from the forward angle.

You can see the CIWS towards the stern




Other ships meant meant for battle lines, and more $$$$, mount multiple CWIS.
But frigates are kinda "throw away" vessels.
Not to say they haven't taken some damage and still kept ticking.
But, they skimped a bit. After all, they're frigates.

 

[actaeon277]

Oh. And as for monetary war costs to Russia, the loss of a cruiser adds about three quarters of a billion.

Though, it was a bit long in the tooth, and it could be argued they got their money's worth.

 

[Wolfhound]

Another problem, though not to blame in the Stark's attack, is the Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates had ONE CIWS (Close In Weapon System).
So.. the ship had to be oriented correctly for the CIWS to engage a missile. The superstructure blocked any defense on missiles fired from the forward angle.

You can see the CIWS towards the stern
View attachment 194890


Other ships meant meant for battle lines, and more $$$$, mount multiple CWIS.
But frigates are kinda "throw away" vessels.
Not to say they haven't taken some damage and still kept ticking.
But, they skimped a bit. After all, they're frigates.

Speaking of the Stark it is interesting that it took 2 missile hits and did not sink. Though It was obviously out of action. However, the Moskva, which is 3 times bigger 4K tons vs 12k tons took 2 hits and sank.

I guess one of the Exocets hit but did not detonate which helps explain things a bit.

 

[PRasko]

 

[actaeon277]

Speaking of the Stark it is interesting that it took 2 missile hits and did not sink. Though It was obviously out of action. However, the Moskva, which is 3 times bigger 4K tons vs 12k tons took 2 hits and sank.

I guess one of the Exocets hit but did not detonate which helps explain things a bit.

Stark also didn't take a hit in the magazines.
And the fire was prevented from getting to the magazines.
Location is everything.

 

[Leadeye]

As I remember some of the Brit ships took a beating from Argie Exocets in the Falklands.

 

[IronHammer]

Another problem, though not to blame in the Stark's attack, is the Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates had ONE CIWS (Close In Weapon System).
So.. the ship had to be oriented correctly for the CIWS to engage a missile. The superstructure blocked any defense on missiles fired from the forward angle.

You can see the CIWS towards the stern
View attachment 194890



Other ships meant meant for battle lines, and more $$$$, mount multiple CWIS.
But frigates are kinda "throw away" vessels.
Not to say they haven't taken some damage and still kept ticking.
But, they skimped a bit. After all, they're frigates.

When I was on the Kitty Hawk I got to see the CIWS in action and it was amazing how fast it was and how many rounds they put through that thing. It was truly awesome to see in person.

 

[SEIndSAM]

As I remember some of the Brit ships took a beating from Argie Exocets in the Falklands.

Exocet missile: how the sinking of HMS Sheffield made it famous​

Weapon was seen as a fatal threat to UK’s defence of the Falkland Islands – and scored a direct hit on the English language.

Exocet missile: how the sinking of HMS Sheffield made it famous

Weapon was seen as a fatal threat to UK’s defence of the Falkland Islands – and scored a direct hit on the English language

www.theguardian.com

 

[Keith_Indy]

So, we knew it was likely, but waited to do anything effective... yes, the adults are in charge in D.C.

CIA Director Burns: We Knew Last Fall Putin Was Invading

CIA Director William Burns said U.S. intelligence first became aware early last fall of Russian President Vladimir Putin's plans to invade Ukraine.

www.newsmax.com

"By early last fall we and our partners in the U.S. intelligence community had begun to gather disturbing and detailed intelligence about Putin's plans for a major new invasion of Ukraine," he said. "Neither Putin nor many of those around him could imagine Russia as a major power without a deferential Ukraine – a Ukraine whose external choices were controlled by the Kremlin.

"I have learned over the years never to underestimate Putin's relentless determination – especially on Ukraine. In early November, President [Joe] Biden asked me to travel to Russia to convey directly to Putin and several of his closest advisers the depth of our concern about his planning for war, and the consequences for Russia for attempting to execute that plan.

"I was troubled by what I heard. While it did not yet seem that he had made an irreversible decision to invade Ukraine, Putin was defiantly leaning in that direction – apparently convinced that his window was closing for shaping Ukraine's orientation."

 

[nra4ever]

It's on now!!

 

[Vodnik4]

It's on now!!

What are the Orcs gonna do? Invade Ukraine even more, or genocide them deeper?

Biaches, you start a war, be prepared for it going both ways.
If Ukes push Russkies out and take over some Russian city, like Voronez, would be nice.

 

[Keith_Indy]

What are the Orcs gonna do? Invade Ukraine even more, or genocide them deeper?

Biaches, you start a war, be prepared for it going both ways.
If Ukes push Russkies out and take over some Russian city, like Voronez, would be nice.

HOW DARE THEY DEFEND THEMSELVES AGAINST OUR EFFORTS TO BRING PEACE TO THEM!!!

 

[Tombs]

Zelensky Is Good. But He's Not a Superhero #shorts

Is life on earth just like a Marvel movie? Is Putin equivalent to Thanos and Zelensky to Captain America?Although we may wish to see it that way, the real wo...

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