SAf: Treat all evidence as if it were loaded, keep pointed in safe direction...

[DRob]

I'm a member of three shooters forums. I'm a lot safer than those who are only members here!

 

[cbhausen]

I’m not tactical, and I certainly don’t care about looking or being cool. I just want to teach others in the best possible way. I’ve been around many people with zero experience firing their first shots. I simply prefer to keep rules of behavior observable and correctable. It just doesn’t make sense to me to tell someone guns are always loaded or treat guns as if they are always loaded when obviously that’s not true. Hell, safe handling involves learning how to load, unload, clear, etc...

I can’t imagine an instructor correcting a student by saying “You weren’t treating it like it was loaded”. That instructor would be correcting observable behaviors covered by NRA’s three rules (or Cooper’s three other rules).

I don’t point guns at anything I’m not willing to shoot and I keep them locked up unless I’m carrying them. KISS and leave the make-believe to kids. It’s hard enough for a new shooter to process everything without introducing abstractions which are simply rendered obsolete by actual gun handling procedures.

It’s simple, Kirk: you keep doing your shtick and I’m going to keep following you with mine.

 

[ATM]

I think that what Quirk is saying is that even though the 3 NRA rules of safe gun handling manage to include a step which actually unloads guns you don't need loaded, and the older set of 4 rules he prefers doesn't mention doing this, anyone who points out such a deficiency of his preferred set is simply "justifying reckless behavior".



Does that about sum it up?

...safe handling involves learning how to load, unload, clear, etc...

Yep. No need to assume anything, and no excuses if you do.

 

[churchmouse]

ATM pretty well covered this one.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

There's also the point to be made that, of all factors involved in many accidents, lack of specific knowledge often isn't among them.

There are people who can be careful, and there are people who simply can't (or won't).

 

[Kirk Freeman]

It’s simple, Kirk: you keep doing your shtick and I’m going to keep following you with mine.

YOU asked me to explain, which I did. Now you don't like the answer and you have a lip on.

Firearms safety involves human lives. Don't get a lip on, get educated.

 

[Leadeye]

Sad story, if it was in this country I would wonder who would be getting the law suit for the woman's death. No idea how things work in South Africa these days.

 

[Brad69]

I believe that most shotguns are not “drop safe” ?

Brad’s rule #33 (b) a weapon that needs to be loaded needs to stay loaded

reasoning: a large number of ND’s happen loading and unloading, keep your booger hooks off of it unless you need to touch it.

 

[cobber]

When I had the 5 year old with the canoe'd forehead, when they were dragging him away for shooting through the wall in a safe direction, he said "it was my right".

Let's stop purposefully being dangerous just to be cool and different and teach the Four Rules so no one else has to see those photos.

Maybe the Four Rules don't apply in RSA?

 

[Hookeye]

Stupid people always pose risk.
Its a dangerous world out there, always will be.

Eh some guns are worth more than some people.

 

[Hookeye]

Too many close calls.
Best way to be safe is avoid people.
Most dangerous?
The ones that supposedly have been trained.

 

[Alamo]

When I first read the article I linked to, with all the passive voice, I had some doubt as to whether the deceased dropped the shotgun or what, so I looked through as many articles as I could. Most of them simply say "discharged" or similar. On the theory that the news sources closest to the event might have better info, I specifically looked for South African sources. Some of them were in Afrikaans, which I don't read, but I found two in English that say the shotgun "fell" while it was being "displayed as evidence." This implies that possibly no one had their hands on it, it may have been on a table or some kind of stand when it fell for some reason (somebody bumped the stand?) and the prosecutor was on the wrong end of it going off.

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]https://www.timeslive.co.za/news/south-africa/2019-11-19-kwazulu-natal-prosecutor-dies-in-freak-accident-when-gun-goes-off-in-court/
https://www.dispatchlive.co.za/news...in-freak-accident-when-gun-goes-off-in-court/[/FONT]

This does not excuse anyone of anything of course, it should never have brought into court loaded in the first place, and even then it should not have been "displayed" in a manner that allowed this to happen. Kirk's right in that "treating every gun as if it is loaded" subsumes verifying its actual status. And then still treating it as loaded. Someone seized the shotgun in the first place, someone held it for the trial, someone transported it into the courtroom, someone put it on display (the prosecutor herself? the bailiff?). Apparently none of them treated it as a loaded gun.

 

[indiucky]

Everyone knows the solution is to yell "eet ain't loaded" with your upper front teeth over your bottom lip when some boring safety nanny tells you that ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED.

"Hey son!!! Watch where that BB gun is pointed..."

"Sorry dad.."

"Remember boy...A gun's always loaded even when it ain't...Got it?"

"Yes sir.."

Jeremy Renner, Wind River

 

[ATM]

...Apparently none of them treated it as a loaded gun.

Or, perhaps they all treated it as if it were loaded, but none of them actually unloaded it as the 3rd fundamental NRA rule for safe gun handling clearly directs:

https://gunsafetyrules.nra.org/

That shotgun certainly wasn't in any sort of use requiring that it remain in that loaded state.

The last thing we need is more rules, rather a focus on the fundamentals is ALWAYS in order.

 

[churchmouse]

Or, perhaps they all treated it as if it were loaded, but none of them actually unloaded it as the 3rd fundamental NRA rule for safe gun handling clearly directs:

https://gunsafetyrules.nra.org/

That shotgun certainly wasn't in any sort of use requiring that it remain in that loaded state.

The last thing we need is more rules, rather a focus on the fundamentals is ALWAYS in order.

Bingo.....again.

I see all opinions have pertinence in these issues. Kirk is adamant as he has seen 1st hand the end result of the stupidity that can all too often be the casual gun handler.
ATM has spent more time in a training/teaching capacity than I can even measure.
CBH is as adamant in his 2A pursuits as anyone I know.
Just to touch on a few.