SBR AR question

[irishfan]

How short can you go on a barrelf for a short barreled AR before you start losing its usefulness? I was thinking about going with a 10.5" barreld upper but I want to make sure I am not hurting myself in the process.

Thanks

 

[jd4320t]

Are you talking 223/556?

 

[Bigdee06]

Usefulness for what purpose in particular? For fun, it really doesn't matter. The shorter you go the more FPS you lose and the louder it gets. I guess it all depends on how far and fast you want to be able to fling some lead.

 

[Cwood]

Personally I would go 11.5, they are not as picking on what ammo they eat.

 

[irishfan]

Personally I would go 11.5, they are not as picking on what ammo they eat.

Actually, I was looking to copy that fine rifle of yours I seen a few 1500's back What is your setup?


Yes, 5.56

 

[OneBadV8]

Actually, I was looking to copy that fine rifle of yours I seen a few 1500's back What is your setup?


Yes, 5.56

Don't do it!

Next you'll be wanting an AR in .300

 

[esrice]

7.5" is the shortest you can go, and that is with a pistol-length gas system.

With a carbine-length gas system you can go 10.5", 11.5", 12.5", etc.

Reliability and energy for the various lengths can be debated. BCM has good reasons for going 11.5". I've got a Noveske 10.5" and it runs like a top.

 

[revsaxon]

Personally I would go 11.5, they are not as picking on what ammo they eat.

My 10.5 eats everything I throw at it. Wouldn't want to go down to anything below that though, My 7.5" has major problems with just about everything I feed it though.

 

[ssgjason]

I run a Colt 6933 11.5 and it eats everything. When plinking I run the cheapest steel I can find.

 

[dom1104]

It depends on what your use for the gun is.

If you are interested in competitive shooting, anything less than 16" is going to be more of a hindrance than a help. The argument could be made that anything less than 18" is marginal.

If you are interested in self defense shooting, you have to ask yourself if you truly are going to defend your home with a NFA weapon. The answer I have heard from MOST owners of SBRs and suppressors, is that they do not use them for HD. Either for fear of loss or civil litigation fears, warrented or not.

If your reason is because you want one, and it looks cool to you, than anything that works is a win!

It is my opinion, that the primary thing that SBRs do better than 16" guns, are firefights in a closet, and not being rediculous long with a suppressor attached.

When the suppressor is attached, now its back to being as long as the 16" gun, which is not so hot for fighting in the closet.
Other than that, its mostly for looks.

 

[ryknoll3]

It depends on what your use for the gun is.

If you are interested in competitive shooting, anything less than 16" is going to be more of a hindrance than a help. The argument could be made that anything less than 18" is marginal.

If you are interested in self defense shooting, you have to ask yourself if you truly are going to defend your home with a NFA weapon. The answer I have heard from MOST owners of SBRs and suppressors, is that they do not use them for HD. Either for fear of loss or civil litigation fears, warrented or not.

If your reason is because you want one, and it looks cool to you, than anything that works is a win!

It is my opinion, that the primary thing that SBRs do better than 16" guns, are firefights in a closet, and not being rediculous long with a suppressor attached.

When the suppressor is attached, now its back to being as long as the 16" gun, which is not so hot for fighting in the closet.
Other than that, its mostly for looks.

What kind of competitive shooting? Are you talking Service Rifle matches or something? People use SBR's in competition all the time.

 

[dom1104]

What kind of competitive shooting? Are you talking Service Rifle matches or something? People use SBR's in competition all the time.

Not sure what competition you mean, but I was thinking carbine courses, 3 gun, obviously any NRA sport is 20" or 24-26" guns, but especially in 3 gun, the best thing to happen to someone would be everyone ELSE showing up with SBRs

Also its pretty darned hard to make power factor with 55 grain bullets in a 14.5, you would definatly need to run heavier bullets for the shorter barrels, which ups the cost.

CAN you do it? Absolutely. Is there a reason every top 3 gun shooter runs a 18 - 20 inch gun? Yes. The vast majority of them run 20" guns.

And it is NOT because they are slower for running the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpY68W6yXmY

I am afraid I am coming off as "Anti SBR" which I am not at all, but a SBR is definatly a niche gun, and their niche is "Fun Gun".

And honestly, what better niche to be in? I mean fun is the best part O livin

 

[Socomike]

10.5 is plenty effective on human sized targets within 200 meters. If it wasnt, the military wouldnt use it.

I have colleagues of mine that run 10.5's exclusively in Afghanistan and Iraq. I used a 10.5 for a short amount of time in Iraq as well. I never had a problem with lethality when fighting within 200 meters.

Are there better choices out there? Maybe. Depends on what you are willing to compromise on.

Bottom line, 10.5 is fun, looks awesome, and with 77grn mk262 is plenty effective.

All that said, I am building a 12.5in upper to supplement my 10.5

Mike

 

[ssgjason]

Not sure what competition you mean, but I was thinking carbine courses, 3 gun, obviously any NRA sport is 20" or 24-26" guns, but especially in 3 gun, the best thing to happen to someone would be everyone ELSE showing up with SBRs

Also its pretty darned hard to make power factor with 55 grain bullets in a 14.5, you would definatly need to run heavier bullets for the shorter barrels, which ups the cost.

CAN you do it? Absolutely. Is there a reason every top 3 gun shooter runs a 18 - 20 inch gun? Yes. The vast majority of them run 20" guns.

And it is NOT because they are slower for running the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpY68W6yXmY

I am afraid I am coming off as "Anti SBR" which I am not at all, but a SBR is definatly a niche gun, and their niche is "Fun Gun".

And honestly, what better niche to be in? I mean fun is the best part O livin

What do 18"-24" barrels do better INSIDE 100 yards than 10.5"-14.5" barrels?
Not taking anything away from what you are posting, but I see no reason not to run an SBR for your range/plinking/HD weapon.

 

[dom1104]

What do 18"-24" barrels do better INSIDE 100 yards than 10.5"-14.5" barrels?

make power factor. run smoother. follow up shots are faster. get the compensator out further from your face. in short, everything that actually involves shooting quickly and accurately.

Even 14.5 is "too short". If you run a 14.5 you need a stainless poly rifled barrel to try to squeeze a few extra FPS and hope like heck you make PF. If you do well in 3 gun with a shorter gun <read, 16 or 14.5> it will be in spite of the shorter barrel and not because of it.

<disclaimer: I suck at 3 gun stuff, but I hang around with a few guys who rate up there, and listen a lot.>

Also, when 95% of the top 3 gun masters run 18-20" guns, and one guy on Firebird runs a 16" and is thought of as a maverick, we call that a "Clue By Four".

 

[ssgjason]

make power factor. run smoother. follow up shots are faster.

Darn it, I added more and took too long to post.
I don't shoot matches (besides Garand Matches) so I don't understand power factor.
I won't disagree with you on smoother but will disagree on faster follow-up shots, especially when you factor in muzzle brakes and or suppressors

 

[dom1104]

Darn it, I added more and took too long to post.
I don't shoot matches (besides Garand Matches) so I don't understand power factor.
I won't disagree with you on smoother but will disagree on faster follow-up shots, especially when you factor in muzzle brakes and or suppressors

I ... dont know what to say other than we must have very different understandings of what a follow up shot is, or how 3 gun compensators work.

I think if you shot a few matches, you would quickly realize, that controlling the gun is the primary concern, not "bumping into things that if my gun was a bit shorter I wouldnt have bumped into."

You have given me a great idea tho, at some point I have to screw my 3 gun comp onto a 10.5 barrel, and see if I can blow my eyebrows off

Or cause the RO to try to back up into the next area code.

Rock on brother.


<edit: I just read your bit about "Range/Plinking/HD" and I totally agree. Range / Plinking falls under the "Fun Gun" catagory for me, and for HD they would be great. Oddly very few people I know use them for HD, most say they wouldnt want them to be confiscated.>

 

[ssgjason]

I ... dont know what to say other than we must have very different understandings of what a follow up shot is, or how 3 gun compensators work.

I think if you shot a few matches, you would quickly realize, that controlling the gun is the primary concern, not "bumping into things that if my gun was a bit shorter I wouldnt have bumped into."

You have given me a great idea tho, at some point I have to screw my 3 gun comp onto a 10.5 barrel, and see if I can blow my eyebrows off

Or cause the RO to try to back up into the next area code.

Rock on brother.


<edit: I just read your bit about "Range/Plinking/HD" and I totally agree. Range / Plinking falls under the "Fun Gun" catagory for me, and for HD they would be great. Oddly very few people I know use them for HD, most say they wouldnt want them to be confiscated.>

meh, we are probably more on the same page and are simply arguing small points. And I don't want to get into an argument over the use of using an SBR for HD, but I do, as it is perfectly legal and due to IN's Castle Doctrine laws, it makes me even more comforatable with it.

 

[revsaxon]

An unsupressed SBR for home defense is a terrible idea. As the barrel gets shorter the noise gets louder. Its not bad at outdoor ranges, but even with hearing protection its loud on indoors. Use one unprotected in your house and there goes your hearing for a long long time.

 

[irishfan]

I really like seeing all the discussion from both points of view! You guys are giving me some good info. The intention of this rifle is a toy of course but also a suppressor host. I have been toying with buying the YHM 5.56 QD and this would be my big ticket toy when all things are added. I have a 590A1 and my pistol for home defense so this is strictly for me as a fun rifle and maybe use in a carbine course if I choose to.