Scenario: What would you do?

[jwh20]

Well, with the distance involved you can't justify use of force based on death or serious bodily injury to yourself since it's so easy to slip out the door.

So, you're left with using force to prevent death or serious bodily injury to a third person, or the commission of a forcible felony.

Therefore, it boils down to the reasons behind why one chooses to carry a means of defense.

Is it just for you and yours, or is it also for a wider purpose?

Individual answers to that question vary.

I certainly can't argue with that. Indeed, it is an individual and very personal decision. It's one of those questions that has no right or wrong answers and what we decide is usually driven by our values more than anything else.

I know without a doubt that doing nothing when I had the capability to do something to end a situation like this would haunt me for the rest of my life. But that's my values driving that.

 

[IN_Sheepdog]

Keep in mind that in the case of an Active Shooter, (especially if you have gone outside) you are also going to be the Salmon swimming upstream, as every sheep in the place is going to be RUNNING toward those exits and you going the opposite direction (if you choose to do so) is going to have a very threatening appearance, especially if you have drawn a weapon...

Also because of this (AS case) they are possibly going to hang around the exits or block them in some way, (ala Aurora Colo Theater) and wait for their victims to come to them.

Personally as a Sheepdog, (once my own family is clear), I think there is a moral imperative to do something, if you indeed have the capability to do so... How would you look in the mirror the next morning otherwise if you didnt? (I know, open forum etc. but... )

Ohh, and one other thing... Should you be lucky and successful in dealing with the situation, have some by stander call 9-1-1 with YOUR description as well as the perp. (For reasons not to go into at this point...) And if reasonably safe to do so, (Ie perp no longer active threat, disarmed, DOA etc. ) RE-Holster your weapon. You don't want ANOTHER armed citizen or especially the police to think you are the shooter.

Once LEO's arrive, make sure all your actions are done slowly, keep your hands visible at all times, and EXPECT to be disarmed... The Police are going to be dealing with the same adrenalin you are...

1. Identify witnesses/evidence
2. Cooperate fully (physically)
3. Identify perpetrator and establish who is/are the victims.
4. Even if charges are not immediately filed, assume they will be and contact a self defense attorney immediately.
5. Do NOT Blabber on beyond the above... tell them you will give a full statement within 24 hours once you have had the opportunity to calm down, and flush the adrenalin.

 

[ATM]

...I would definitely stop the threat but most people won't post this because by publicly announcing this on an open forum can be used as intent later in court in some future case.

oopsy

Intent to stop a threat? Yeah, I'll go ahead and confess to that one.

 

[Somemedic]

Sheepdog is absolutely right.

When there was a shooting in the mall in Hobart recently there were a few off duty cops already on scene and CCing. When the shots were fired they pulled their pieces and BADGE on a neck chain to identify as LE. One officer was criticized for having his badge on his belt... nobody looks at your waist while your holding a gun but the neck chain badge is more readily visible according to the LEOs who were on scene.

Now should you get a badge and neck chain and have it under your shirt when you carry? That's up to you. Not sure what the badge would say "CCW Holder" maybe but if you are successful in subduing an active shooter, congratulations. You've survived only part I, you better make damn sure the in coming LEOs have an idea who you are, or dont have a gun in your hand when they arrive.

 

[Shadow8088]

came across this on youtube last night.. thought it might apply here... skip ahead to 10mins if you don't want to listen to his rant about training...

http://youtu.be/7pc1t7x0Rls

 

[Roland of Gilead]

In a high percentage of active shooters situations they take their own life. It seems the murders do this because they feel a threat closing in on them real or not. Or they feel like they have met a quota of murders to make the news. These murders don't seem to look for the classic suicide by cop. The point is for me I'm going forward towards mass murderer to let the murder know there is resistance.

 

[Roland of Gilead]

well this is the interwebs, so who knows how i would truely react. I do know my value system... alot of others come before me. But i do not have any children so honestly i have less to lose.

 

[.452browning]

I can not and will not stand by and watch as people are shot up by an armed threat. I would intervene. We can go into scenarios all day everyday, but I will still attempt to intervene.

If I have loved ones with me I will lead them away from danger then attempt to intervene.

 

[ModernGunner]

I took an oath. Multiple times.

That should answer the question.

 

[Tinner666]

Hard choices. I was within 50 yards of a gunfight that broke out at an outdoor mall. I took cover and drew keeping my sidearm close and ready. With people running everywhere, I didn't take aim at anything, but watched to see if anybody pointed at me from center of the excitement.
It got quiet and I stayed to tell PD what little I had seen.

Same thing happened near where I work, and PD were already involved, which I didn't know about, and I did the same thing.

There has been several other instances in my life. Generally, I didn't shoot.

 

[Aaron1776]

For the purposes of my answer, I'm going to assume that this isn't the biggest Lowes in the history of the world, and that he is just on the other side of the front enterance.

I don't have a family.
I don't have a wife.
I don't have a girlfriend.
75% of my close friends who I would find myself in a Lowes with carry too.

Things are much, much simpler for me. I don't have anyone I whose safety trumps the safety of people around me, thus it would be my ethical imperative to act.

I would draw my XD .45 into position Sul to let people know I'm not there to kill them. Yelling friendly at anyone who got near me and pointing toward the exit behind me, I would advance from concealment/cover to concealment/cover until I had a proper angle on the d-bag. Then I would engage until either he was dead or I was dead.
Due to my methodical method of advancement, I figure that by the time I get to him every innocent around him will be dead, on the ground, or out the door. I'm not overly worried about another OC or CC type shooting me for a few reasons. 1- I'm in position Sul if I'm not shooting. That should be at least a warning sign that I'm friendly 2- I OC, so if they saw me before the shooting started they know I was armed and didn't start the fight. 3-Perhaps this is the bit of mall ninja not yet trained out of me, but I would think it would be easier than you think for the people on the immediate scene to ID the shooter. Generally he's the one randomly killing people while everyone runs the heck away from him. I'd be the one with a gun pointed at the ground moving AT him.

Finally all of this is predicated upon the hope that my training and dedication to date has given me enough mental toughness to not be overwhelmed by fear and simply hunker behind cover with my weapon drawn.

This is precisely why FoF training with rounds that hurt, and live fire exercises involving shooting and moving really matter.

What matters more though is your mentality.
If you carry a gun with a purely survival/wishing mentality of "Oh I hope he doesn't kill me/ I hope I can defend myself", you're probably not going to act.

Is carrying a gun for defensive purposes? Absolutely. Do we use a gun defensively? No. It's a gun, not a shield. You use a gun to offensively protect yourself. Just like our armies who invaded Germany in WW2. An invasion is an offensive action, but the war was a defensive one.
Thus once a man kicks off a violent threat to you, it is time for you to initiate a defensive war against him until he is neutralized. (Surrendered, killed himself, incapacitated, or dead)
Thus your mentality isn't "I hope I can defend myself"
Your mentality should be "I hope this doesn't happen today. I don't want to do that at all" but once it does happen it immediately turns into "I'm going to @#()U you now creep"

This is how we survive. By being bolder, smarter, harder, and more skilled than the bad guy.

 

[Excalibur]

If I was by myself, I'd take cover, observe and call 911, describe the shooter, not taking my eyes off him, and then describe myself and explain my intentions so when officers approach, they will know who I am. Afterwards, I will carefully head advance to the shooter if he is still in sight, draw my gun after I see him and get a clear shot.

If I am with my buddy who is a cop, he would insist I cover him as he advances, so most likely I would not be able to call right away. We would both advance together at the shooter and take him out as a team. Then afterwards, he would call it in and explain the situation.

If I am with my family, girlfriend, etc, I get them out of there because they are my priority.

 

[junior438]

i agree with excalibur with the first 2, but the third, id send them back out, and then continue with number 1.

 

[LockStocksAndBarrel]

Hard choices. I was within 50 yards of a gunfight that broke out at an outdoor mall. I took cover and drew keeping my sidearm close and ready. With people running everywhere, I didn't take aim at anything, but watched to see if anybody pointed at me from center of the excitement.
It got quiet and I stayed to tell PD what little I had seen.

Same thing happened near where I work, and PD were already involved, which I didn't know about, and I did the same thing.

There has been several other instances in my life. Generally, I didn't shoot.

I never want to be anywhere near you. Several other instances, huh?

 

[CitiusFortius]

You're right by one of the entrances/exits. A guy walks in the other entrance and opens fire.

I believe I would draw, with my shoulder against the outside wall, go to the other entrance to address the situation.

Basically, if he was standing there blasting I MIGHT run up behind and shoot him in the back.

Most mass shooters can outgun most cc in a staight up battle. The advantage of surprise is the only advantage you have in the situation described above. If it can't be used, then tuck tail and run...

 

[infinititech]

I agree. Protect your own first. They can get to car and leave. And chances are when shooting breaks out everyone will hit floor and I could drop them from door to door with my xd

 

[CitiusFortius]

I could drop them from door to door with my xd

Forgive me for questioning your bravado, but i believe your accuracy may be questionable given the adrenaline of the situation.

 

[djkbmwguy]

I don't have a wife.
I don't have a girlfriend.

If you did have a wife and did have a girlfriend then the shooter may be coming for you. It may be a cute little blonde with an attitude.

So does the scenario also include that the shooter is a female? Would it matter?

Can you determine if the shooter came to shoot a specific person or everyone. Would it matter what you do?

There certainly is a lot to try and determine in a very short time frame. God grant wisdom to anyone who is put in such a situation and give them excellant aim if they need to shoot.

 

[Dead Duck]

If you did have a wife and did have a girlfriend then the shooter may be coming for you. It may be a cute little blonde with an attitude.

So does the scenario also include that the shooter is a female? Would it matter?

Can you determine if the shooter came to shoot a specific person or everyone. Would it matter what you do?

There certainly is a lot to try and determine in a very short time frame. God grant wisdom to anyone who is put in such a situation and give them excellant aim if they need to shoot.

Hey - Nobody said anything about the shooter being a girl.

In that case, I'd be running like the wind. Unless of course she was a redhead. I could never outrun a ginger.

 

[Aaron1776]

If you did have a wife and did have a girlfriend then the shooter may be coming for you. It may be a cute little blonde with an attitude.

So does the scenario also include that the shooter is a female? Would it matter?

Can you determine if the shooter came to shoot a specific person or everyone. Would it matter what you do?

There certainly is a lot to try and determine in a very short time frame. God grant wisdom to anyone who is put in such a situation and give them excellant aim if they need to shoot.

I laughed pretty hard when I read this...
especially since I have a thing for blonds, and, when I'm not in the ER, I work in politics. Thus we could be talking about my future. lol (j/k ladies haha)


And no, it wouldn't matter to me if it was a woman. If I see a gun being used to kill innocents, then I incapacitate or kill the person wielding it...or I die trying. Unless of course this is the aforementioned future senario involving me, my wife, and my girlfriend....then I'm running for the door!!!!! lol

"Honestly honey!! I have no idea why that intern was trying to kill me!!!"