Scout leaders: I need advice

[miguel]

INGO Scout leaders, I need some advice. It's a long read, but hang in there with me if you are involved with Scouting and care about the future of some good Scouts!

Miguel Jr. is currently involved in Cub Scouts at the Bear level. His Pack is associated with his school, which is convenient for our family. That said, I'm starting to think the convenience of this situation is not worth being involved with this Pack any longer.

The problem is, I don't believe that 75% (or more) of the boys in his Den are interested in Scouting or any of the achievements required to earn their rank. The parents are almost fully detached from the experience. We are an upper middle class (read "rich") suburban school and have basically had the same small group of parent volunteers (me included) who have shouldered the load since Tigers. Another aspect of this is our Den has about 15 kids, which is way too many, in my opinion. I've been hoping that we would have some attrition over the years to thin the herd, so to speak, but we've lost more of the attentive (dare I say "good"?) kids than the kids who constantly -- and in quite disrespectful ways -- disrupt the meetings. And yes Virginia, your math is correct, we had nearly 20 in our Den when they were Tigers...

And please, don't get me wrong, I have kids -- both boys and girls -- and am involved in other extracurricular activities, including coaching, so I know "kids will be kids", so that's not really the issue for me. The problem is, this particular group of boys literally runs rampant in the Den meetings, except for a few who try to pay attention, but can't get anything done because everyone else is swinging from the trees. This lot continually fails to heed even firmly worded instructions from the leaders, some of which I have personally delivered. And believe me, I don't come across as a cheerful or casual man when I'm "on message".

Our Den leader -- God bless him, he is a good man who works hard for our group and without his contributions we might not even have a Pack -- is more the, "OK guys, sit down...hey, c'mon now, I told you to sit down, please" type than a disciplinarian and the boys know this. I have broached this subject before and suggested we institute a system of accountability for behavior, be it a "green/yellow/red light" type system to be reported to parents after each meeting or something else. No dice. I've even gone as far as asking whether some of these boys should continue to be involved, but that was not received well.

It is literally killing me to see these kids get passed on to the next rank without having really learned anything or nailed down all the achievements required to do so -- books are simply signed and handed back even if the kid was screwing around, throwing pencils and talking about pooh the whole meeting -- but what is worse is the impact it is having on the kids who want to be there and do their best to participate in this war zone. When an nine year old (not my kid) is astute enough to say, "Can we have the meeting somewhere else and let the crazy kids stay in this room?", well, it pisses me off honestly. I'm also frustrated that I haven't been able to impact a change, which I've tried to do with both leadership and the boys when I've had an opportunity to interact with them individually.

My questions is, is this a typical Cub Scout Den or an exception? I mean, if we try to get into a new Den as Webelos next year am I trading a frying pan for a fire?

My son wants to stay in Scouts and I think it is a great program that I want to continue to be involved in along with him, but I can't pretend this is not an issue for him -- or me -- any longer.

I now open this thread to good advice, questions and personal criticism.

 

[RockofStrength]

Speaking as a former scout (I know you said leaders but I figure I've at least got related experience) who lived in a small town filled with middle class folk at the richest with a few upper-middles dotting the outside area I can say that that wasn't how mine was run. I missed Tigers but from Wolf to Webelo we were kept in line. We were always respectful, if a bit rambunctious at times, or else we were brought sharply to heel by the den leader. Can't say what system of punishment we might have gone through because most of the parents were pretty die-hard about raising their kids right; actually getting the work done before stuff was signed etc. At most a sharp tone of voice was needed to bring us back to relative calm. Looking back on it, we always had strong participation even in extra stuff like the Pinewood Derby races (even if some of the dads did "participate" by building speed machines for their sons ) and I imagine that helped a great deal.

I would say the responsibility for the kids themselves lies with the parents, obviously, and the best your Den can do is set a strong example for them. Talking to the parents about discipline issues might work, but I honestly think some people consider the Scouts to be a "send them to the nuns" kind of thing, if they don't think of it as little more than slightly-older-kids daycare.

It speaks well of you and your son that he dislikes the kids screaming around the monkey cage, and if you can find another Pack or Den reasonably close by I'd recommend giving it a try.

 

[Dirtebiker]

I can tell you this, from lots of experience with Boy Scouts when I was a kid, and Girl Scouts, my wife and I did a lot of volunteering when our girls were in, and even though our girls are college age and older now, my wife still is very involved with Girl Scouts.
I know it's tough to deal with certain kids, but first, don't give up on them! They need you adult volunteers more than you can imagine. Second, the group will definitely start thinning out, so much that you may end up needing to combine troops at some time.
Keep your son in Scouting as long as you can. He will learn so much and have so much fun, I'd hate for him ( and you) to miss out. Don't let his "friends" convince him that it's not cool... Believe me, that will happen at some point!
Good luck, and hang in there.
Btw... You need to establish rules and consequences for when those rules are not followed. You want them to have fun, but to also learn responsibility, honor, etc., etc.

 

[miguel]

Thanks for the input, guys. I am trying to live by the Scout motto and "do my best" with the situation and challenge myself to step up to the responsibility and opportunity to positively impact these young mens' lives, but I'm about at the point where my best isn't good enough!

Rock, I do know what you mean...at times I feel like we're looked at as free baby sitters for an extra 90 minutes every couple of weeks. I'm a charitable guy, but don't have the leisure to spare that much time in the garden if the flowers ain't gonna bloom...

I know two very experienced Boy Scout leaders that I am also going to run my concerns past. Hopefully I will be able to sort this out and it will have a positive outcome.

 

[hooky]

It's a parent thing. I went through the same thing as a den leader in cub scouts. It sounds like you might be in Carmel.

Hang in there. Go to the troop and make your case known. I can guarantee that the parents, who aren't involved with their drop off boys, will call and make it sound like they're there for every breath when they call above you to complain about the meetings.

I ended up resigning the position, but have taken a few of the boys out every summer in an effort to teach the basics. Some of my son's best friends are renegade scouts.

 

[Hammer]

Eagle scout here, and one of the best things my Scout Master (RIP) said when a boy joined the troop was that the boy scouts is not a baby sitting service and I'm not their nanny, boys that wish to participate will be accompanied by a parent. Of course he was understanding of situations where a parent could not make the meeting, but we always had orderly meetings.

 

[Stubbleducker]

It's a parent thing. I went through the same thing as a den leader in cub scouts. It sounds like you might be in Carmel.

Or the city/town directly to the east! Went through the same thing as a den leader as well. Just decided the headaches weren't worth it (call me a quitter), so we dropped out. Instead we take our kids (and neighborhood kids who actually have an interest - and self control!) on camping/fishing/hiking trips and teach them things the way I was taught - from people who actually do those thing, not from somebody who's reading to them how to do ______ from the scout manual. No badges, no merit points, just having fun and learning by doing.


(and to Hammer's point, having the parents there did nothing to help the situation, in many cases made it even worse)

 

[MrsGungho]

Eagle scout here, and one of the best things my Scout Master (RIP) said when a boy joined the troop was that the boy scouts is not a baby sitting service and I'm not their nanny, boys that wish to participate will be accompanied by a parent. Of course he was understanding of situations where a parent could not make the meeting, but we always had orderly meetings.

Parent of a Bear Cub and our meetings are not like the OP as we have also said "we are not a baby sitting service"

Parents must attend the meetings and sit with their child, once they are into Weeblos we don't enforce that as much. We also understand if something is up and they need to drop and run now and then.
We have 24 in our pack and are always looking for new recruits who really want to be a Scout.
without our parents I am not sure we could be what we are. Some of the boys do get a bit rowdy but a quick "signs up" calms them and we don't continue until they are calm.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

OP: Have you considered videotaping the meetings?

Then asking the other parents to please also attend?

If they balk...then ask that their child find another den. More balking...offer to show them the video of the typical disruptive behavior of their child. Then ask again if they'd like to attend with their kid or find another den...

Rocks & hard spaces... Glad I wasn't raised up like those kids are!

-J-

 

[ralphb72]

Current Cubmaster here. Take it up the chain of command!

It sounds like the main problem is that the op is NOT the den leader and the den leader refuses to do anything about it. Some of these suggestions assume that you are the den leader, but I read it as you are NOT the den leader.

So being that you have that many in the Den, have you talked to the Cubmaster about what is going on in that den? If not, you need to right away. Also, the ideal den has 6 to 10 kids, 15 is way too many. Each pack is NOT limited to one den of each age group, so there is no reason NOT to split the den in two. I'm not saying to keep all of the kids who cause trouble in one den and put the ones that want to be there in the other though. Splitting up the troublemakers into different dens would be good both for the dens and for the kids themselves.

Our Bear year began with a new code of conduct created by the scouts themselves with input from the Den leader. If someone continually has problems following the code, the parent is given a written letter explaining that there is a problem and that the parent must be present at the next meeting for their scout to participate. If it still happens after that, the parent is given another letter that they have to be at every meeting.

So, since your Den Leader is unwilling to fix the situation, talk to the Cubmaster about it, and consider splitting the Den in two. If the cubmaster will not help, talk to your committee chair, district executive, or charter unit rep. Keep going up until you get to someone who will take action. Make sure to let them know that if something is not done soon, you will loose the kids who want to be there into different packs and that you are considering that yourself.

It doesn't sound like a problem with the kids, just a leadership problem, so don't count the kids out!

Let us know how it goes please.

 

[D.B.]

The job of Den Mother / Father is truly a balancing act. Keeping the good kids interested and the not so good kids from running off the good kids. 15 kids is a big pack! May be better with 2 packs of 7 or 8? You will see that as the children get older the numbers will shrink. Good for you being one of the involved parents! Keep trying to encourage more parent involvement some might need a little push or just be to shy to step forward on their own... Never know who may have a special skill, hobby, or cool work place that could make a memorable outing for the boys. Thanks for keeping Scouting alive and enjoy this time of your kids lives, its a short one.

Eagle Scout Troop 510 (1986)

 

[miguel]

Current Cubmaster here. Take it up the chain of command!

It sounds like the main problem is that the op is NOT the den leader and the den leader refuses to do anything about it. Some of these suggestions assume that you are the den leader, but I read it as you are NOT the den leader.

Correct, I am an assistant den leader.

So being that you have that many in the Den, have you talked to the Cubmaster about what is going on in that den? If not, you need to right away.

The sad part is, we have so few parent volunteers, our den leader = Cubmaster, too. Again, he's not a bad guy, but he's definately not having the same reaction to what we are both experiencing as I am.

Let us know how it goes please.

Will do. I want this to work and want to be part of the solution, I am just not doing a good enough job to impact change, but I will stay on it!

 

[Classic]

Correct, I am an assistant den leader.



The sad part is, we have so few parent volunteers, our den leader = Cubmaster, too. Again, he's not a bad guy, but he's definately not having the same reaction to what we are both experiencing as I am.



Will do. I want this to work and want to be part of the solution, I am just not doing a good enough job to impact change, but I will stay on it!

I'd like to say congratulations on being a real leader and looking for wise ways to correct the situation....and for not giving up.

I was in Cub Scouts, WEBELOS and boy scouts many years ago and it is interesting that you have many of the same problems we had. I can remember my mom dad and some of the other leaders always discussing how to bring in "new blood" for the leadership team and how to get parents to participate more.

There were differences though. Cub Scouts tended to have Den Mothers and in Boy Scouts the leaders were all male and most had a military or outdoorsman kind of demeanor. There was order at all organized functions and misbehavior was dealt with usually a strong dressing down D.I. style in front of peers. I don't remember anyone ever mouthing back at the leader or having to be kicked out but there was ORDER.

The other thing was about goal-setting and achievement. There was no "signing off" without a demonstration of the book learning and the practical demonstration of the skill. No give aways to sooth anyone's self-esteem or padding points to make anyone feel better about themselves. You could get the help you needed but there was no free ride, everything was earned.

Most of the "attitude" in scouts was just a reflection of US society as a whole, it was literally,Truth, Justice and the American Way with a big dose of self-reliance, accomplishment and reward. Not wanting to tout it as the "Good Ole Days", just different than now. Unfortunately you are dealing with a whole different society and attitude. You have my respect and I wish you great luck.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Sounds like a tough spot. I took my son out of scouts because it seems to have become more of a way for parents to gather and brag, show off, socialize etc. while the kids seem to think it is just recess.

 

[PistolBob]

Your leadership problem is that your pack doesn't have enough leaders. A den with that many kids is crazy. Get the parents together and have the Cub Master or the Committee Chair tell them you want no more than 6-8 boys in a Den, and who wants to be the new Den leaders for the new Den. BSA doesn't mean Babysitters of America. BTW...Cubs don't really earn ranks. They just move up a level with every new school year. What they earn are the activity awards and their rank badge. If your son is a Bear, he's in the third grade.

 

[PistolBob]

OP...don't give up. Scouting is a fantastic program for young men. I was never so happy as when we moved from Cubs to Boy Scouts. Seems like in Cubs you have to do everything for the kids, in Boy Scouts, not so much....they're more on their own and you're there to apply bandaids and tend to bruises. I was an active leader in my Pack/Troop for over 25 years...worth every penny of it.

 

[sadclownwp]

I have done it all. Cub Scout to Boy Scout to active in Boy Scouts as an adult, to Assistant Scoutmater.

Go get a piece of paper.

Draw a line down the center of it.

List the good things about it on one side.

List the bad things about it on the other.

Do not lie to yourself.

If good outweighs bad, stop complaining and be thankful.

If bad outweighs good, effect change.

I found that making the boys do push ups for bad/disruptive behavior worked very well, and when the parents complained, I told them, the Scout Oath.

On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.

And remember nothing you do to make better scouts is cruel, things may not be fun for them at all times, but Scouts is not about always having fun. It is about turning boys from children into productive members of society. The kids who want to be there for the right reasons will stay, those that don't will tell their parents they want to quit.

Once you have thinned the herd a bit, reward the ones that stayed with a campout, somewhere fun like Turkey Run. And use campouts as rewards, those that got the ranks and badges will be allowed to go, those that did not work on there badges must be told they are not invited.

 

[sadclownwp]

Also I am not talking about a couple push ups, I mean 100 push ups for every misbehavior. To be done in front of the whole pack or troop with one of the boys or adults counting them out. Some of the scouts I lead racked up as many as 1200 before they quit. Most understand you are not there as a babysitter after the first 100 push ups.

 

[ralphb72]

Boy Scouts you can do the push ups etc, cubs are different, I have yet to see a 9 year old do 100 push ups.

 

[ralphb72]

So you are the assistant Den leader, the Den leader is also the Cubmaster. So you should have a Committee chair or a district executive that you can talk to about this. You also have parents I'm sure that if they knew what was going on would either leave or insist on splitting the den into more manageable numbers. Talk to the other leaders and parents. The pack does not belong to the Cubmaster, it belongs to the charter organization. The Committee Chair, the Charter organization rep, and the Charter organization executive all out rank the Cubmaster.

All of you sit him down and spell it out for him. "Either you start enforcing some discipline, we split into 2 dens, or you are going to loose half of your scouts, the half that care about being there, including me and mine."