Scouts and Firearms "Be Prepared"?

[ralphb72]

Anyone else find this ironic? The scout motto is be prepared right? So reading through the info for camp I find this "Do not bring firearms or knives to camp." Now granted this is CUB Scout camp NOT BOY Scout Camp so I understand that they don't want the kids to bring those things. BB Guns will be provided and supervised, archery also. BUT it is my understanding that adults are not to bring firearms to camp AT ALL, not even in their vehicles.

I feel that one of my primary responsibilities as a Scout Leader is to protect the kids under my care and I feel that I cannot do that job correctly unarmed. What say you?

 

[Greg.B]

I went with 'Concealed means concealed', but also think "Scout Leaders should be REQUIRED to carry' is applicable (Had to pick one!)

That being said, regarding firearms, BSA National policy is:

Except for law enforcement officers required to carry firearms within their jurisdiction, firearms shall not be brought on camping, hiking, backpacking, or other Scouting activities except those specifically planned for target shooting under the supervision of a certified BSA or National Rifle Association firearms instructor.

Unfortunately, it will probably never change. BSA Legal has enough headache to deal with, and I think they're simply scared of the liability. To add to the confusion, being an NRA Instructor isn't enough; if you look at each subsection (rifle, pistol, shotgun), you need to have an NRA Instructor for that specific discipline AND an NRA Range Safety Officer if actually on the range, and Boy Scouts are limited to rifle and shotgun; only Venturers are allowed to shoot handguns...

This leaves the Cubs shooting archery and BB at established camps; units can't do their own activities....

*sigh* Sorry for ranting; this is one of my hot topics

I'm a little suprised by the knife part; Boy Scouts who have met the requirements (safety) are allowed to carry them; Cub Scouts are not; I've never heard that adult leaders couldn't have knives. Are they referring to any knife at all? Fixed blade knives are discouraged, while fixed blade over a certain length aren't permitted at all, to the best of my recollection. I'd have to look that one up though, since my interest and involvement in BSA revolves primarily around the shooting sports.

 

[ralphb72]

Thanks for the response. I won't comment on my actions that revolve around "other scouting activities" but this will be my first camp out.

I don't think they were referring to adults about the knives although in Outdoor Leadership Training I was told fixed blades are NEVER allowed for adults or scouts due to an accidental death of someone who had one in a pack and fell backwards on it. Could be a local regulation but that is what is being taught here. In any case, my little Gerber knife will definitely be going. My boy's knives will not. They can learn properly and then wait until BOY scouts.

I almost always have at least a pistol in the car except at work where unfortunately, because of the exceptions in the new law, it will remain at home.

I know no one will see it in the car at camp BUT tucked in uniform shirt = hard to conceal and swimming suit = hard to conceal.

 

[Greg.B]

No comment needed

Actually, to satifsfy my curiosity, the information from the GSS (Guide to Safe Scouting) only says this regarding knives:

A sharp pocketknife with a can opener on it is an invaluable backcountry tool. Keep it clean, sharp, and handy. Avoid large sheath knives. They are heavy and awkward to carry, and unnecessary for most camp chores except for cleaning fish. Since its inception, Boy Scouting has relied heavily on an outdoor program to achieve its objectives. This program meets more of the purposes of Scouting than any other single feature. We believe we have a duty to instill in our members, youth and adult, the knowledge of how to use, handle, and store legally owned knives with the highest concern for safety and responsibility.
Remember—knives are not allowed on school premises, nor can they be taken aboard commercial aircraft.

So, don't quote me on the knife part Apparently, according to a Cub leader that I know, their cubs can use a pocket knife, as long as it's no longer than the width of their palm when opened. He also confirms that BSA National doesn't mandate no fixed blades, and that there is normally a regional 'guideline' defining what's permissible and what's not.

Back on track though; I will say this; when I go camping with my Troop, it doesn't matter if it's a established camp or a unit event, one of our responsibilites that we have is protecting the youth that we serve. I'd recommend doing so in whatever manner you feel most comfortable with, keeping in mind what the established rules are and what the consequences could be should you choose to violate them and were discoverd. I'll simply leave it at that, and let you make your own decision! I wouldn't comdemn you no matter which you chose!

 

[ATM]

I was banished from the Cub Scouts as a child.


(It was not firearms related.)


If I were to become involved again as an adult, I would carry until they banished me a second time.

 

[Greg.B]

I was banished from the Cub Scouts as a child.


(It was not firearms related.)


If I were to become involved again as an adult, I would carry until they banished me a second time.

Dare we ask?

 

[Tactical Dave]

When I was in Woodland SAR we cound not have a knife with a blade over 6 inches and could hot have any gun's....... I knew of at least one team leader that had a pistol on him or in the van.

With all the drug deals that go on in the wood's and the meth labs out there and the sicko's if it was me I would carry and keep it well hidden and not tell anyone.

 

[SavageEagle]

My Boy Scout camp, Old Ben Scout Reservation in Petersburg was strictly no firearms except for the firing range. They had 22's there. However, that didn't stop one of the scout leaders of my troop from carrying. However, for official events he left it in his truck in the parking lot. Kinda hard to conceal a 1911 when you are in full dress uniform. No one knew about it except his son and me, and only me because I saw it.

Of course, my dad abide by the rule for the most part as far as I knew. That doesn't mean he didn't bring one, I just never knew about it.

As far as cub scouts, there's a VERY good reason to not allow them to carry a knife. Now that I'm older I can respect that. As a Boy Scout I had my Wood Chit card's corners cut 7 times for improper knife use. Yes I have to take the class twice so I could get the card back. I'm a bad boy!

As far as adults carrying knives, we considered it a sin if one of the leaders/scoutmaster didn't have a knife or lighter on them at all times.

 

[Blue Tile Spook]

I was banished from the Cub Scouts as a child.


(It was not firearms related.)


If I were to become involved again as an adult, I would carry until they banished me a second time.

I have never met you, don't know anything about you except for what you post here on INGO but... this doesn't surprise me a bit!

 

[Spot Me 2]

I went with #3. That being said I think both 3 and 4 apply!!!

 

[wtfd661]

I have never been a scout, nor do I really know much about them. The question that I have though has to do with honesty and integrity and how it applies to scouting. Wouldn't it be against their code to do something dishonest by not following the rules when you know what they are.

Like I said I could be wrong about it, not sure. Nor am I trying to get you riled up. Just genuinely curious how that applies to your decision making.

 

[Greg.B]

I have never been a scout, nor do I really know much about them. The question that I have though has to do with honesty and integrity and how it applies to scouting. Wouldn't it be against their code to do something dishonest by not following the rules when you know what they are.

Like I said I could be wrong about it, not sure. Nor am I trying to get you riled up. Just genuinely curious how that applies to your decision making.

Nope, it's a fair question; unfortunately, I probably won't be able to answer it successfully because there's more to consider than just "he's breaking the BSA rule"...

What I can do is give you a little of my though process on the subject. As Scout Leaders, we try to instill honesty and integrity, along with other values, into the future young men and leaders. So yes, carrying concealed against their policy is in and of itself going against something we're trying to teach these young men.

However, when looking at the firearms policy of BSA, one could also argue that while they are an organization that is a private organization, and therefore they set their own rules, the adult leaders are charged with protecting the Scouts at all times.

Scouts also teaches the importance of God and Country, and alongside that they teach shooting sports.

So therein lies the dilema; how do you teach duty to Country if their policy itself strips one of your 2A rights? How are you able to protect them at all times under that same condition? Granted, like carrying a firearm for personal protection, you're likely to never need it, but what if you were in the situation where you DID? I'd rather be able to protect, and be barred from Scouts, than to not be able to protect.

It's just an unfortunate fact, BSA Legal is, like many other entities, afraid of being sued, and are trying to limit their exposure as much as possible. Rightfully so, when you look at the number of lawsuits they face each year, and some of the ridiculous charges brought against them. But that's the fact and the main reason for these rules, among the other smaller issues of what if a leader weren't responsible and a Scout did get a hold of a firearm.

Like any other rule that restricts our 2A right; it's each individuals choice how they're going to deal with that rule, and to know the consequences of their actions.

 

[wtfd661]

Great answer. I hadn't thought it through like that. Shows why you are the scout leader and I am not.

 

[Bendrx]

That is a tough one. Leave it in the car is the same as leave it at home IMO. I don't think anyone should be required to carry, I don't want somebody to carry just because they have to, an then likely not know how to use thier handgun. So that leaves #3. As said before, there are good reasons to do each answer - so whatever is chosen I don't think anyone here would hold it against you.

Part of learning to do what is right, is learning when, why and which rules to break.

 

[Bushido Devil Dog]

Regarding the poll, option 3 seems the best way to go. Given that even d-bags can become Scout Leaders (see below), requiring *every* SL to carry doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

While living in Ohio () I went on a Cub Scout camping weekend, the info for which specifically said "no knives" for us kiddies. Well, we had to bring our own eating utensils, and my older brother had a cool Swiss Army-style camping knife that had fork and spoon "blades" on it, and my Mom wasn't willing to risk me losing her good silverware, so I brought it to eat with. My Dad had taught me how to use and even sharpen knives long before this, so even at this early age(8?9?) I resented the Nanny mentality that I saw regarding the use of inanimate tools.

Nonetheless, I had no intention to use the knife blade in keeping with the spirit, if not the letter of the rule set for the camping weekend. I didn't play show and tell with my choice of eating utensils, but as the weekend progressed word got around that I was using a multi-bladed tool to eat with. Inevitably this led to some kid asking me to cut something for him. I can't remember the details clearly, but I think it was something that a Scout Leader had sent him back to the main camp area (where I was at) to cut with a pair of scissors. He couldn't find them, and with no SLs around, he asked me. Some other hall monitor wannabe kid saw me use the knife blade, and being jealous that mine was so much bigger than his (thanks for the good genetics, Dad! ), nautrally played tattle-tale to one of the Scout Leaders who gave me grief about it. I tried to explain the situation and reason why I helped the kid out, but the guy just acted like an a-hole about it. He didn't try to take it away from me, but the incident turned me off to the whole scouting thing and I quit not too long after this.

The only highlight of the weekend was a portable air rifle range that was set up by the Ohio DNR and manned by conservation officers. I was one of the first kids lined up waiting for them to finish the set up, and was the only one out of the first 8 or so kids to hit the animal-shaped spinner targets with my first shot. My Dad, a USMC Vietnam veteran, taught me well! We got one shot, then had to go to the end of the line if we wanted to shoot again. I went five times or so, and NEVER missed a shot...

 

[JDonhardt]

Dont ask dont tell.

 

[skseifert]

I have never been a scout, nor do I really know much about them. The question that I have though has to do with honesty and integrity and how it applies to scouting. Wouldn't it be against their code to do something dishonest by not following the rules when you know what they are.

Like I said I could be wrong about it, not sure. Nor am I trying to get you riled up. Just genuinely curious how that applies to your decision making.

This is my seventh year as a scout leader (three of them as Cub Master) you are correct - honesty and integrity are the key values that we try to instill in the boys. And if we all agree to the rules, then our integrity binds us to the rules.

Also, the other comments about Scouting fearing liability are so true - I can't even be alone with any of the boys - not for one minute - nor can any registered Scout Leader because of past lawsuits that have come against the organization (and it is a fine organization).

 

[skseifert]

Btw, I vote keep it in the car. I follow the rules while on Scouting events, but to and from that event I am back to protecting myself and my family.

 

[Whosyer]

I was banished from the Cub Scouts as a child.


(It was not firearms related.)


If I were to become involved again as an adult, I would carry until they banished me a second time.

I wasn't banished......but. In a fit of anger at my activities, my scout master sentenced me to kp for the next 30 campouts. Being 14, and knowing that we only had 2 campouts per year......I bailed. No way was I doing dishes til I was 29.

 

[JohnP82]

I voted that they should carry, if not then concealed means concealed.