Selective Service... is it constitutional???

[Duncan]

What if you just REFUSE to volunteer ?

You do have to volunteer .. right ?

The " take one step forward .. " that is a free will choice ... Volunteering .
What if you didn't ?
Ok you refused and order ... stockade ...

But are you a us service person BEFORE you take the oath ?

If you are not then UCMJ has no jurisdiction over you .

Ponder it .

Here are some links .

You may prevail .. you may not .
I think a lot depends on HOW you go about it .
It appears that you comply up to the point that you are ASKED to volunteer .

On This Day: Muhammad Ali Convicted of Draft Evasion

My draft resistance

NO DODGING, JUST REFUSE TO VOLUNTEER -- Freedom Underground

How Not to Be Drafted

The Military Draft

Dodge the Draft? Refuse to Volunteer

The court ruled that the draft law required some definite ceremony to transform a civilian into a soldier. As the Army decided to have one step forward constitute the ceremony, and Willie didn't take the step, he wasn't a soldier. U.S. Court of Appeals, 1954

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn9-2ErlTi0

 

[Paco Bedejo]

Have they started teaching kids that 2+2=5 yet?

Still waiting on SCOTUS to rule on it. Three justices are leaning toward 4.75 instead.

 

[Phil502]

So, because you would volunteer, it's OK to force someone else who would not?

"I'd gladly work in the fields if asked, so I don't know what all these negroes is complainin' about."

Yea like that....
Here's your guys, oh I don't want to fight the Japs just the Germans, oh no wait I'm busy on Thursday, how about Monday, if it's not raining. Great army you have there......Get real....

 

[RockofStrength]

Yea like that....
Here's your guys, oh I don't want to fight the Japs just the Germans, oh no wait I'm busy on Thursday, how about Monday, if it's not raining. Great army you have there......Get real....

Except that a draftee is not in the army until drafted. It would be utterly silly to have volunteer soldiers resisting every order to go and fight at place X, I agree, but this conversation has nothing to do with the standing volunteer army.

 

[gunowner930]

Yea like that....
Here's your guys, oh I don't want to fight the Japs just the Germans, oh no wait I'm busy on Thursday, how about Monday, if it's not raining. Great army you have there......Get real....

Oddly enough, in our current all-volunteer military there aren't a whole lot of issues similiar to what you described.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Oddly enough, in our current all-volunteer military there aren't a whole lot of issues similiar to what you described.

Really??? Then what was all the recent "conscientious objector" crap? And all the crap about don't ask don't tell? Or the UCMJ being tossed out the window in lieu of the civilian law and courts? IMO these are all at the very least "similar" to those issues.

 

[rambone]

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Oddly enough, that is almost exactly what state sanctioned marriage does. In the 3 party contract known as marriage, upon dissolution all fruits of said marriage become the sole property of the state. Don't believe me? Look it up! Or just ask any attorney or minister/priest/clergyman.

 

[gunowner930]

Really??? Then what was all the recent "conscientious objector" crap? And all the crap about don't ask don't tell? Or the UCMJ being tossed out the window in lieu of the civilian law and courts? IMO these are all at the very least "similar" to those issues.

Conscientious objectors are not common. I never met one during 5 years. What does don't ask don't tell have to with anything? I haven't heard about the UCMJ being undermined by civilian law, is there anything that can be cited?

"Yea like that....
Here's your guys, oh I don't want to fight the Japs just the Germans, oh no wait I'm busy on Thursday, how about Monday, if it's not raining. Great army you have there......Get real" -Phil502

^My response was aimed at this quote. Members of our Armed Forces do NOT get to pick and choose when they're going to train or what war they're going to fight. They'll go to the brig for refusing to train. And last I checked we are still an all volunteer military.

 

[Lead Head]

Relax. They already know where you are. It's just a formality. I recently had to go through a federal background/clearance check (more like an alien probe) and my Selective Service date is still on file.

As for the Draft. It's unlikely to happen again in our lifetime.

I'm not to old to fight but I am to old to put up with the bull****.

 

[RockofStrength]

Really??? Then what was all the recent "conscientious objector" crap? And all the crap about don't ask don't tell? Or the UCMJ being tossed out the window in lieu of the civilian law and courts? IMO these are all at the very least "similar" to those issues.

A member of the military who chooses to conscientiously object to a given war should be given whatever punishment that refusing to do your duty is provided for in military court. They signed a contract willingly, and they should pay the price that was clearly laid out for them in that contract.

I have issue with giving jail time to a man who lives here, chooses not to go into the military or fight in a given war, yet is told to get on the ship/plane/truck or else you will face imprisonment for violating a contract that he never signed.

 

[Robin Hood]

OK, I admit I didn't read all 20 pages of this thread, so if this has already been covered, forgive me. For there to be another draft, Congress would have to pass, and the president sign a bill instituting another draft law. This draft law could include signing up and taking females as well as males.

The elastic clause (because it can be stretched to cover a multitude of circumstances) also known as the necessary and proper clause of the Constitution would be used to make a draft constitutional. Congress can "make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this constitution." Article 1, Section 8

 

[Robin Hood]

I very vividly remember doing the paper work at my draft board in Hamilton County in 1970. I was fortunate; my birthday is December 5; for my lottery, December 4 was number 1; I ended up being 252.

 

[rambone]

A member of the military who chooses to conscientiously object to a given war should be given whatever punishment that refusing to do your duty is provided for in military court. They signed a contract willingly, and they should pay the price that was clearly laid out for them in that contract.

I think conscientious objection has its place in the military. If the leaders of this country attack our allies, should soldiers be punished for refusing to partake? They've got to be given a legal route to avoiding the "just following orders" defense when this government goes rogue.

 

[Bill B]

I saw one conscientious objector in 8 1/2 years. This was in about 1986 or 87. He had been in for three or four years when he "found religion" or was converted or however you want to say it. I don't mean to sound trite, but really don't know what to call it. Anyway, because of his new found beliefs he could no longer use a firearm. He received and honorable discharge after some minimal B.S. that was required. No biggie.
As far as the whole "conscription is slavery" thing, with great rights comes great responsibilities. The Constituion gives congress the authority to raise an army. Not hire an army, not beg for an army, but "raise" an army. In those days it was not uncommon for gov'ts around the world just snatch people off the streets and say "your in the army" or navy. That's where the term shanghaied comes from. To try to argue that the founders envisioned an army of just volunteers is incorrect. Maybe in their ideal world, but they knew better.

 

[Expat]

Like Cassius Clay suddenly became a devoted Moslem when he was looking at being drafted. Keep in mind when you do the draft dodger route, someone else has to go in your place. That's why it gets pretty personal for guys that went when called. Someone very possibly will die in your place.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Conscientious objectors are not common. I never met one during 5 years. What does don't ask don't tell have to with anything? I haven't heard about the UCMJ being undermined by civilian law, is there anything that can be cited?

"Yea like that....
Here's your guys, oh I don't want to fight the Japs just the Germans, oh no wait I'm busy on Thursday, how about Monday, if it's not raining. Great army you have there......Get real" -Phil502

^My response was aimed at this quote. Members of our Armed Forces do NOT get to pick and choose when they're going to train or what war they're going to fight. They'll go to the brig for refusing to train. And last I checked we are still an all volunteer military.

We hear almost daily of men and women refusing to go to the middle east due to their religion. Don't ask don't tell is a civilian law the undermines the UCMJ. Holding civilian trials for POWs and enemy combatants is another example of tossing out the UCMJ. Obviously you won't run into a lot of objectors serving active duty because they are generally tossed out on their butts or moved to a secluded spot where they don't have the ability to contaminate the pool instead of continuing to get paychecks for work they refuse to perform. When you have a barrel of apples and one goes bad, what do you do with it? You certainly don't leave it amongst the rest to spoil them as well.

 

[RockofStrength]

I think conscientious objection has its place in the military. If the leaders of this country attack our allies, should soldiers be punished for refusing to partake? They've got to be given a legal route to avoiding the "just following orders" defense when this government goes rogue.

I don't disagree, but as I had no reasonable solution to offer I went with the best I had: you signed a contract that bound you to perform all duties ordered by the military command structure regardless of personal ethical or moral standards. When they start telling you to round up the "subversives" or whatever, you signed a contract that legally lets them tell you to do that so long as there are no legal objections that can be raised and all you can do in protest is take the punishment due to an actual traitor.

To clarify, I heartily dislike the fact that an American who wants to serve their nation in combat is forced to sign a contract that could legally (not morally or ethically mind you!) bind them to perform actions just as heinous as any done under the Nazi or Soviet regimes. I also understand that there are times when a person will object to escape their contracted duties or for other, equally subversive reasons and that this would make for an unacceptably unstable armed force if permitted in that same contract.

I don't know a solution, but I do know that making slaves for the common defense is as ridiculous as making slaves to promote the general welfare or any other Constitutional duty laid upon the government's shoulders. Forcing a man to suffer imprisonment or go fight in a war he cannot morally abide is no better. I wish I had a solution, honestly: perhaps older and wiser heads than mine will have one?

 

[thebishopp]

I don't disagree, but as I had no reasonable solution to offer I went with the best I had: you signed a contract that bound you to perform all duties ordered by the military command structure regardless of personal ethical or moral standards. When they start telling you to round up the "subversives" or whatever, you signed a contract that legally lets them tell you to do that so long as there are no legal objections that can be raised and all you can do in protest is take the punishment due to an actual traitor.

Technically the oath of service is as follows:

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.


Article 90 of the UCMJ covers punitive actions.

Here is an interesting article that covers the obeying of "UNLAWFUL" orders. It even has a bit of info on the first recorded case of the "I was just obeying orders" excuse.

To Obey or Not to Obey

Unless an act is so obviously wrong (for instance you are ordered to rape and kill everyone in a village and even in that case you may have problems for initially refusing) it's kind of a damned if you do damned if you don't scenario.

 

[bkflyer]

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.John Stuart Mill
English economist & philosopher (1806 - 1873)​