shooting irons on a carbine length AR: the nitty gritty realities

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  • ol' Huff

    Sharpshooter
    Mar 8, 2012
    567
    28
    This is about marksmanship, not gear. This is for the Hitemlongaway gang, not for the Kickadoor tribe.

    The front post on a carbine length gas system is much closer to your eye. That makes it harder to shoot with precision at distance. Lets talk about why.
    A lot (and I mean a lot) of shooters will shy away from shooting irons. The biggest reason given is old eyes. The reality is that most folks just don't know how. Vision issues can be overcome. Some are harder to overcome than others, but we are Americans, the most technologically and medically advanced race the face of the planet has ever seen. Vision issues can be overcome.

    The more you get into precision shooting, particularly with a sling which connects you to the rifle and makes you a single "system" more than other styles, the more critical the fundamentals become. Chief among those are the 6 Steps to firing a shot. I know a lot of minds out there want it to be more complex than it actually is. They want to believe that there are more advanced concepts that a mind needs to be exposed to that bring greater precision into focus, but its just not the case. There is a cloud of dogma out there but in the end it boils down to the 6 Steps.


    A couple things to remembers. If you are focusing on something far away, something closer to your eye is difficult to see. So, if you are focusing on a target 300 yards out your front post will be more out of focus than it would be if you were focuing on something 50 yards out. If you are focusing on something nearer to your eye then something farther away becomes harder to see. This last bit is the trouble with carbine lengths.

    Contrary to popular belief, the eye wants to focus on something about the same distance away from your face as a 20" AR post. If you find someone who really does have vision trouble or "old eyes" and hand them a newspaper, they will hold it out at arm's length. They do this because the easiest plane to focus on with aging eyes is further away (the natural, relaxed plane of focus is actually infinite because your eyes are set parallel to each other in their sockets unless you have an extreme astigmatism, a lazy eye, etc. all of which can be corrected). That arm's length distance is about the distance of the post on a 20" AR. Its a good distance and targets look good, albeit a little fuzzy, on top of that 8ish moa post. It looks like 'Merica.

    A carbine length moves that in considerably. Realistically, its only a few inches, but in the ever expanding cone of rifle vision, its a pretty good distance. Because that post is closer to your eye, and your eyes must strain harder to refocus at that distance, the background objects (target) become even more out of focus. Think about this: if you have a camera in your hands and and take a photo focused on an object 5 feet away, the background will be vastly out of focus if it is 300 yards away. Under the same conditions should you take a photo of something 100 yards away, the 300 yard distant background will not be as out of focus (grab a camera and try it, the physics will be readily visible in the photos). So, because the carbine length is closer, the fuzzy target visible when you focus on the front post can become extremely fuzzy and extremely small. That 8moa post, once a good size for a 20"er, is now so large you can't see anything beyond it.

    This is the dynamic you are dealing with. The solution is not rocket surgery, its boringly basic. You have to go back to the fundamentals. The harder the shooting becomes technically, and shooting a carbine length AR with irons is pretty technical, the more important the 6 Steps become. Indeed, that target will become frantically small and fuzzy when focus is applied to the front post. It is precisely because of this that you must steel yourself more intensely on focusing on the front post. You must be exactly certain on where the front post resides on the target which means increasing your level of focus. Your shooting position (steady holds factors), which directly relate to your ability to produce good sight alignment, become even more critical because sight alignment is more sensitive with a shorter sight radius. Your sight picture is mroe difficult to maintain because the above issues are making it harder to put the fuzzy blob on the front post. Respiratory pause is more of an issue because it can take a poorly constructed position off the target. The focus elements are more critical. Follow through is made mroe difficult as the inability to see a larger blob prevents better shot calling. Its kind of obnoxious.

    A 16" AR with irons is pretty technical shooting but I can assure you of one thing, the only fix is better fundamentals. You can replace the post with a match post, which is thinner, and can refine your focus and not obscure a target as much, but until you fix that actual fundamental element of focusing on the post it won't matter. You can get a lighter trigger, which is nice, but won't fix a bad trigger squeeze. If you snatch, jump, or set and finish a trigger it won't matter how fancy the trigger is, your squeeze is rotten. A free-float tube will not help bad sight picture.

    So, how do you fix the focus issue? You have to retrain your eyes. Its pretty easy to learn to focus your eyes on a 20" AR or a Garand, a carbine length is tougher and you have to retrain them. Brightly light a plain white wall, preferably flat or satin, glossy can cause eye strain. Dry practice against this white wall, with nothing on it, and do so at a distance that all you can see past the post is the wall. Your eye, with nothing else to focus on, will naturally then focus on the post. Five minutes 3 or 4o times a week will make a world of difference.

    A Rifleman's score with a carbine length AR is not rockit surgery, but it is pretty technical shooting. Don't make it mroe than it is, just improve your fundamentals and ventilate.
     
    Last edited:

    Twangbanger

    Grandmaster
    Oct 9, 2010
    7,111
    113
    It reminds me of shooting a snubby, vs. a full-size handgun. You focus like hell on trigger roll, because it's all you have left, you are reduced to the most elemental pieces (and not in a good way).

    If I was going to take a carbine-length AR to a full-distance Appleseed, I'd want to cheat and have that gun worked out beforehand, so I could just focus on the things you mention above. I think if I had to figure out comeups based only on the few shots allowed on Saturday at each distance, with the reduced shot-calling ability the short gun entails, and then go with those settings all day Sunday (with no feedback from the pits)...I don't know if I could do it. It would be like some ancient astronomer figuring out the distance to a star, based on 3 data points with some boulders and a protractor.

    ("Take the weight you saved by not bringing a spotting scope / roll-up mat / stool, and allocate that poundage to a FULL LENGTH rifle.")
     

    sloughfoot

    Grandmaster
    Apr 17, 2008
    7,157
    83
    Huntertown, IN
    A rifleman should be able to tell you how many scratches there are in his front sight.

    The OP posted a lot of useful information. Any aspiring rifleman should have this down. As for me, I need reading glasses or corrected shooting glasses to get a clear front sight. I use +1.75 to get it done.

    Great information posted in a informational way. Rep coming.
     
    Last edited:

    TJ Kackowski

    Let it begin here.
    Site Supporter
    Jun 8, 2012
    1,954
    113
    Hendricks County
    If I was going to take a carbine-length AR to a full-distance Appleseed, I'd want to cheat and have that gun worked out beforehand, so I could just focus on the things you mention above.

    Working with your rifle BEFORE an Appleseed is cheating? I thought that was just being a smart and responsible rifleman. I learn more about this program every day! :D
     

    ol' Huff

    Sharpshooter
    Mar 8, 2012
    567
    28
    There are 3 scratches on my carbine length front post. 2 are near the base and the result of using a Leatherman to adjust it but the problematic one is a slight diagonal groove on the top edge running down and to the left.

    A Rifleman is in possession of a sorted out rifle or is sorting out a rifle all the time.

    Thanks for the rep. Most of the stuff I want to post isn't very interesting but I am convinced its more I important than whatever MOE du jour has the most web sex smeared on it.
     

    Skywired

    Master
    Aug 14, 2010
    1,919
    48
    Cicero
    This is about marksmanship, not gear. This is for the Hitemlongaway gang, not for the Kickadoor tribe.

    The front post on a carbine length gas system is much closer to your eye. That makes it harder to shoot with precision at distance. Lets talk about why.
    A lot (and I mean a lot) of shooters will shy away from shooting irons. The biggest reason given is old eyes. The reality is that most folks just don't know how. Vision issues can be overcome. Some are harder to overcome than others, but we are Americans, the most technologically and medically advanced race the face of the planet has ever seen. Vision issues can be overcome.

    The more you get into precision shooting, particularly with a sling which connects you to the rifle and makes you a single "system" more than other styles, the more critical the fundamentals become. Chief among those are the 6 Steps to firing a shot. I know a lot of minds out there want it to be more complex than it actually is. They want to believe that there are more advanced concepts that a mind needs to be exposed to that bring greater precision into focus, but its just not the case. There is a cloud of dogma out there but in the end it boils down to the 6 Steps.


    A couple things to remembers. If you are focusing on something far away, something closer to your eye is difficult to see. So, if you are focusing on a target 300 yards out your front post will be more out of focus than it would be if you were focuing on something 50 yards out. If you are focusing on something nearer to your eye then something farther away becomes harder to see. This last bit is the trouble with carbine lengths.

    Contrary to popular belief, the eye wants to focus on something about the same distance away from your face as a 20" AR post. If you find someone who really does have vision trouble or "old eyes" and hand them a newspaper, they will hold it out at arm's length. They do this because the easiest plane to focus on with aging eyes is further away (the natural, relaxed plane of focus is actually infinite because your eyes are set parallel to each other in their sockets unless you have an extreme astigmatism, a lazy eye, etc. all of which can be corrected). That arm's length distance is about the distance of the post on a 20" AR. Its a good distance and targets look good, albeit a little fuzzy, on top of that 8ish moa post. It looks like 'Merica.

    A carbine length moves that in considerably. Realistically, its only a few inches, but in the ever expanding cone of rifle vision, its a pretty good distance. Because that post is closer to your eye, and your eyes must strain harder to refocus at that distance, the background objects (target) become even more out of focus. Think about this: if you have a camera in your hands and and take a photo focused on an object 5 feet away, the background will be vastly out of focus if it is 300 yards away. Under the same conditions should you take a photo of something 100 yards away, the 300 yard distant background will not be as out of focus (grab a camera and try it, the physics will be readily visible in the photos). So, because the carbine length is closer, the fuzzy target visible when you focus on the front post can become extremely fuzzy and extremely small. That 8moa post, once a good size for a 20"er, is now so large you can't see anything beyond it.

    This is the dynamic you are dealing with. The solution is not rocket surgery, its boringly basic. You have to go back to the fundamentals. The harder the shooting becomes technically, and shooting a carbine length AR with irons is pretty technical, the more important the 6 Steps become. Indeed, that target will become frantically small and fuzzy when focus is applied to the front post. It is precisely because of this that you must steel yourself more intensely on focusing on the front post. You must be exactly certain on where the front post resides on the target which means increasing your level of focus. Your shooting position (steady holds factors), which directly relate to your ability to produce good sight alignment, become even more critical because sight alignment is more sensitive with a shorter sight radius. Your sight picture is mroe difficult to maintain because the above issues are making it harder to put the fuzzy blob on the front post. Respiratory pause is more of an issue because it can take a poorly constructed position off the target. The focus elements are more critical. Follow through is made mroe difficult as the inability to see a larger blob prevents better shot calling. Its kind of obnoxious.

    A 16" AR with irons is pretty technical shooting but I can assure you of one thing, the only fix is better fundamentals. You can replace the post with a match post, which is thinner, and can refine your focus and not obscure a target as much, but until you fix that actual fundamental element of focusing on the post it won't matter. You can get a lighter trigger, which is nice, but won't fix a bad trigger squeeze. If you snatch, jump, or set and finish a trigger it won't matter how fancy the trigger is, your squeeze is rotten. A free-float tube will not help bad sight picture.

    So, how do you fix the focus issue? You have to retrain your eyes. Its pretty easy to learn to focus your eyes on a 20" AR or a Garand, a carbine length is tougher and you have to retrain them. Brightly light a plain white wall, preferably flat or satin, glossy can cause eye strain. Dry practice against this white wall, with nothing on it, and do so at a distance that all you can see past the post is the wall. Your eye, with nothing else to focus on, will naturally then focus on the post. Five minutes 3 or 4o times a week will make a world of difference.

    A Rifleman's score with a carbine length AR is not rockit surgery, but it is pretty technical shooting. Don't make it mroe than it is, just improve your fundamentals and ventilate.
    It's a rare treat to see Ol' Huff on here. So I took the time to print out your advice. Good words to save... I know, 'cause I had the pleasure of you teaching my first Appleseed Fall 2012 in Noblesville. I saw firsthand: you can do what you say. That is a fact. Appleseed oughta post your future meet assignments. I know I'd travel, just to see you again!
     

    YoungMilsurpGuy

    Sharpshooter
    Nov 18, 2013
    436
    43
    Crown Point
    Call me crazy, but on my AK and similar carbine length notch and blade sights I have no problem, must be something growing up shooting similar sights on a 10/22 and pellet and bb guns
     

    ol' Huff

    Sharpshooter
    Mar 8, 2012
    567
    28
    Skywired-Thank you. It is nice to know that my character is in good stead in the Noblesville area. If memory serves that shoot had a bout of mud at it.
    Ymsg-Size of the target matters. So too does sight size and shape. I can look at anAK post and see it just fine but the question becomes what does the target look like when you focus your eye on the massive AK front post. A 12 moa circle at 25 yards may be easily visible. A 4moa target may be somewhat visible. I shot a Krink last year that put a standard post so close to my fave that it was32 moa wide. A 4moa square was not going to be visible on top of that pay at any distance. Have you shot an AK at a 4 moa square from 500 yards? It is very technical shooting.
     

    philagothon

    Sharpshooter
    Jul 25, 2010
    498
    16
    On the 7th step
    Hey Huff,

    How does sight radius relate to all of this? Given that we all try getting our eyeballs pretty close to whatever aperture we are using, it would seem that sight radius should be a fairly consistent measurement for comparison.

    Rifle : Sight Radius
    United States Rifle Caliber .30 Model 1* : 27.9"
    M16* : 19.75"
    M4* : 14.5"
    My Mini-14 Tactical** : 18.75" (and 12 MOA front post)
    *Internet data
    **Measured data

    From those numbers, the Garand represents a gain of ~41% in sight radius over the M16. The M4 loses ~27% of the M16's sight radius. My Mini-14 gives up 5% of the M16's sight radius.

    I've always heard that a longer sight radius is better, but there's got to be a point of diminishing returns. Is that point the 19.75" of the M16? Does the Garand's extra 8" of sight radius make it harder to focus on the front post, or is it mitigated by making it easier to maintain proper sight picture? Can a mock dissipator (rifle handguards, on carbine or midlength gas system) adequately makeup for the carbine's short sight radius?
     

    ol' Huff

    Sharpshooter
    Mar 8, 2012
    567
    28
    The dissapator is a way to go but all you ate doing at that point is putting a 20 inch sought radios ona carbine length barrel and the real purpose of what I was talking about was how to manage that short radius. There are certainly ways to get around the actual carbine sight mechanics snd you ate right for suggesting it. Optics or red dots are great ways to go.

    For getting a longer radius like a garand it genetally tends to help to move the post out. At some point your are going to havea post too far away to be effective. Where that is may bea matter of science we need to explore and would probably be based in the moa width of the post.

    The boat issue is that they eye desires to focus on things further away. It is easier to do and requires less strain. What you seem to be asking with the diminishing returns is this. If moving the sight in ramps the difficulty up does moving the sight out make it easier to tje same degree or does the advantage taper off? If my understanding of the question is correct them I believe the layer may be true work the understanding that the size of the post in moa matters.

    The post the post the post. The more we gom around worth it the more i come to realize that it is all incredibly easy and obnoxipusly hard. All the great coaches wrote books about psychology that only touch on the marksmanship side. All the great shooters wrote books about marksmanship I think because they have overcome the psychological aspect. All the great shooters that become coaches then wrote books about psychology because coaching others makes them realize how critical the mental aspect is. Javing spent a lot of time recently coaching youth of the same skill level with different mental approaches has really improved myshooting and driven me to be a better manager of personalities on the line.
     

    Leo

    Grandmaster
    Mar 3, 2011
    9,816
    113
    Lafayette, IN
    Where it is allowed within the competion rules, some match rifle shooters swear by sight extenders, either the sight bracket style or the "bloop tube" barrel extension styles. Most of these are found on rifle that alreay have 26 inch barrels so you end up with 30 to 36 inch sight radius measurements.

    My Palma rifle wore a 30.5 inch barrel holding the sight that distance in front of a full sized receiver. That was pretty typical for that type of rifle.

    In both of these examples the front sight is the globe type sight with replaceable or adjustable front aperatures. I tend to size the aperatures to be about 2-2.5 MOA. A 1 moa target easily centers in that size of aperature ring.

    For unsupported offhand shooting, the extremely long sight radius does not work for me. I find it impossible to hold a 36 inch sight radius in offhand. There is just too much amplification of natural wobble at that distance, not to mention how hard it is to fight the nose heavy balance.

    Post front sights as well as aperature sights need to be selected and fit for the use and conditions. A .050 front post on a rifle length AR might be just right at the 200 yard target, but the same sight looks like a fence post on a carbine. Age affects that also. I used to mill AR rifle front sights to .036" and do very well at the 600 yard target. Now I could not find that skinny post with a magnifying glass.
     

    sloughfoot

    Grandmaster
    Apr 17, 2008
    7,157
    83
    Huntertown, IN
    Leo and I have shot together for like 25 years? We both could shoot the iron post equipped 20 inch service rifle when we were younger with nothing more than the eyeballs we were born with. It is a distant memory how clear that front sight was and how easy it was to make tiny little groups at 300 or 500 yards.

    You remember that 18 year old kid from Michigan who won the state service rifle championship like in 2001 that stood up after the 500 yard stage and he said, "that was easy". All kinds of guys were ready to break out of position and do a smack down. After a few minutes, we all settled back down, chuckled and went back to work.

    The point of the story is that age or heredity require that we adapt. I suddenly started needing reading glasses at age 49. At exactly the same time I started having trouble seeing a clear front sight. My solution was to switch to a match rifle with the longer sight radius, a +.5 lens in the front sight, and +1.5 shooting lens for my right eye in the rear.

    I have found that I can do reasonable work with the 20 inch service rifle with a .072 front sight, a .045 rear aperature, and a +1.5 lens in my shooting glasses. But I don't think I can still win any money with my service rifle.

    I have a 16 inch carbine that I have a .052 front sight in. But I cannot make it work for anythig other than battle accuracy. My eyes are just too far gone. BUT I can make it work because I have learned how important it is to really work on getting that front sight as clear as possible. And it IS work.

    And that is the emphasis by the OP. In my opinion.

    EDIT to add: I used a bloop tube on my 26 inch match rifle until that awful morning at Camp Perry in 2005 where the wind was coming from the left at like 30 mph off the lake early in the morning during the 200 yard off hand stage. The wind was grabbing lots of front sights and pushing lots of rifles off the targets. I witnessed lots of national champions shoot lots of 7's that morning. As for me, I wish I could have shot some 7's........:):
     
    Last edited:

    RobbyMaQ

    #BarnWoodStrong
    Site Supporter
    Mar 26, 2012
    8,963
    83
    Lizton
    I'm pretty slow. When it comes to ballistics and whatnot, I am just left in the dust.

    I've been shooting my midlength for a while, as I make the transition to scope shooting. Last week I broke down & bought reading glasses, because I can no longer read a pill bottle for the life of me. Small text I hold at arms length to try to see. I tried to read my son's english assignment, wondering why he writes so light with the pencil, until I borrowed my wifes reading glasses and realized how sharp, dark & crisp the text really was.
    I can still see the iron sights, but it seems to take me forever each time i switch focus (like 2 seconds, which seem like forever anymore). Either back and forth between front sight, or target, rear sight, and front post. (pistol shooting showing through here a bit also)

    I cannot see the scratches on my front posts any longer. A year ago the raindrop on the top of my front sight made me bonkers. Now, it would hardly bother me.
    But I do notice how friggin' huge the front sight is on a carbine ar vs my midlength, or especially the tech sight post on a 22. Scratched my head on that, chalking it up to the eyes going bad...

    Then I read your post.

    The 'aha' moments and simple reminders about going back to basics never cease to amaze me. Keep them coming. slower people like myself need 'em.
     
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