Should medics be allowed to carry?

[Timjoebillybob]

Just like with the now infamous "parking lot bill", my right to keep and bear arms should not be curtailed because my company might hate freedom and the Second Amendment, period. There simply is no justification for infringing upon the right that the Constitution states very clearly shall not be infringed. It`s incredible that here, of all places, an explanation for this position would be necessary.

I disagree with the parking lot bill also. So you have no problem infringing on the property owners rights?

I started this thread and I have read the replies with interest.

I own a home which is private property. Am I within my rights to tell a LEO to leave his weapon in his vehicle if he comes here to do a VIN check?

Am I not afforded the same rights as a LEO in regard to carrying a weapon?

Sure can. And the LEO can tell you okay, I won't do the VIN check.

Sorry, but it`s one or the other, not both depending on circumstances. I see it as my duty to uphold the United States Constitution, and keep and bear arms. No business should have the right to cause me to be disarmed in order for me to make essential purchases.

Once again, it is their property. Do you have the right to tell people what they can or cannot do or what they can or cannot possess on your property?

Freedom of speech isn`t about cursing or profanities. It is about the free expression of ideas and thoughts, even opinions. But when, or if, it becomes profane or filthy, then it`s an assault, and must be stopped.

ETA My how progressive of you, you sound just like antifa or BAMN.

Yes, it is about cursing and profanities.
Speech which everyone likes, does not need to be protected.
Freedom of speech protects that which offends.

Otherwise, they just designate that your speech about guns is profane, and poof, you can't talk about guns.

Yep, pretty much.

 

[stephen87]

This is from EMS1.com

Should ambulance crews be allowed to carry weapons?
         Those who fear or do not understand weapons always make dire  predictions of fanciful scenarios when firearms restrictions are eased

https://www.ems1.com/ems-education/...-ambulance-crews-be-allowed-to-carry-weapons/

I have worked with a few people over the years that I would not want armed. I have been pretty lucky in my career and have walked away from many situations that could have been much worse.

I am going through my advanced EMT right now and we have to write a research paper on something EMS related. Everyone has chosen this disease or that medical conplication, I went directly to the most important part of the run: scene safety and the importance of maintaining it. I'm going to try to use it as a pitch to get my employer, who is also running the class, to open their eyes and possibly allow us to carry a firearm on ahift.

 

[stephen87]

"Units enroute, stage and do not make scene until cleared by law enforcement."

Not that easy. Here's a run I was on less than a month ago.

EMS responding to 123 XY St for possible overdose. Standby until scene is secure. EMS en route. While En route EMS was advised the scene is secure. We walk in and patient is lying on the floor, unresponsive, apneic. We bag, throw in an NPA, attempt a couple of linea. Eventually we give IM Narcan. Significant other is on scene and is calm up until this point. Patient Sita up and starts fighting. I, along with 3 firefighters and my partner, put the patient back on the floor. Significant other runs across the room, spring boards over my back, hands on me and everything. I flip around on SO. Patient uses that advantage and jumps up. Runs to the corner with one officer, starts throwing stuff. So is yelling at the officer, who has his back to them. The other officer on scene never even bats an eye. I step in between the first officer and the SO because of the SO's posture and the fact that first officer has his back to them and second officer is standing around. Eventually, a third officer shows up on scene and tasers are drawn.

Now, with all of that said I could have backed out of the scene, but the door was to my back and there was a chance an officer could have gotten the snot beat out of him. Did I do the "correct" thing by positioning myself? No. Did I do what I felt would protect my officer that already had his hands full? Absolutely. Would I change anything about the run now? Only having SO removed before hand. Aside from that, I would have done everything the same way.

Scenes that are "secure" do not always stay secure. I could tell you a handful of stories, as I'm sure you could as well, where a secure scene went unsecured in a matter of less than a minute.

 

[Joniki]

Not that easy. Here's a run I was on less than a month ago.

EMS responding to 123 XY St for possible overdose. Standby until scene is secure. EMS en route. While En route EMS was advised the scene is secure. We walk in and patient is lying on the floor, unresponsive, apneic. We bag, throw in an NPA, attempt a couple of linea. Eventually we give IM Narcan. Significant other is on scene and is calm up until this point. Patient Sita up and starts fighting. I, along with 3 firefighters and my partner, put the patient back on the floor. Significant other runs across the room, spring boards over my back, hands on me and everything. I flip around on SO. Patient uses that advantage and jumps up. Runs to the corner with one officer, starts throwing stuff. So is yelling at the officer, who has his back to them. The other officer on scene never even bats an eye. I step in between the first officer and the SO because of the SO's posture and the fact that first officer has his back to them and second officer is standing around. Eventually, a third officer shows up on scene and tasers are drawn.

Now, with all of that said I could have backed out of the scene, but the door was to my back and there was a chance an officer could have gotten the snot beat out of him. Did I do the "correct" thing by positioning myself? No. Did I do what I felt would protect my officer that already had his hands full? Absolutely. Would I change anything about the run now? Only having SO removed before hand. Aside from that, I would have done everything the same way.

Scenes that are "secure" do not always stay secure. I could tell you a handful of stories, as I'm sure you could as well, where a secure scene went unsecured in a matter of less than a minute.

Always, always leave yourself an escape route.

Where are you taking your class?

 

[stephen87]

Always, always leave yourself an escape route.

Where are you taking your class?

Taking it through my employer. They are doing the class for us.

I had an escape and could have easily exited, I just didn't trust putting my back to the SO.

 

[Joniki]

Taking it through my employer. They are doing the class for us.

I had an escape and could have easily exited, I just didn't trust putting my back to the SO.

I will be retiring next summer after spending 40 years on the business end of a stretcher. Good luck in your journey.

 

[gregr]

I disagree with the parking lot bill also. So you have no problem infringing on the property owners rights?



Sure can. And the LEO can tell you okay, I won't do the VIN check.



Once again, it is their property. Do you have the right to tell people what they can or cannot do or what they can or cannot possess on your property?



ETA My how progressive of you, you sound just like antifa or BAMN.



Yep, pretty much.

We disagree...so?

 

[Bill of Rights]

The easiest answer is that the scene was reported secure, but was not actually secure. This follows the thinking that the person is the weapon, and the gun/knife/chair/lamp, etc. is just a tool. There was still a weapon, the SO, there. And yes, I can tell you a couple of stories, too, most of which worked out OK, thank you God.

I do see your point that a secured scene is rarely actually secure. Often, that's because they're simply more secure than they were before. Turn that around, though, such that you're working on the dude needing narcan and the SO, standing behind, sees an opportunity, and grabs *your* gun. Complicating that would be if you were in the middle of starting an IV, and just for grins, let's say it's a difficult IV at that. Armchair quarterbacking, and not in the middle of it, the answer is obvious: Screw the IV! I know when I get focused on getting one in, though, any interruption of the process throws me a little bit off. I know I'm not the only one who does that. Training, training, training is the answer, and in the case of the scene you described, probably having at least one officer on over-watch would have been a good choice. 20/20 hindsight, of course.

Good job on your call.

Blessings,
Bill

Not that easy. Here's a run I was on less than a month ago.

EMS responding to 123 XY St for possible overdose. Standby until scene is secure. EMS en route. While En route EMS was advised the scene is secure. We walk in and patient is lying on the floor, unresponsive, apneic. We bag, throw in an NPA, attempt a couple of linea. Eventually we give IM Narcan. Significant other is on scene and is calm up until this point. Patient Sita up and starts fighting. I, along with 3 firefighters and my partner, put the patient back on the floor. Significant other runs across the room, spring boards over my back, hands on me and everything. I flip around on SO. Patient uses that advantage and jumps up. Runs to the corner with one officer, starts throwing stuff. So is yelling at the officer, who has his back to them. The other officer on scene never even bats an eye. I step in between the first officer and the SO because of the SO's posture and the fact that first officer has his back to them and second officer is standing around. Eventually, a third officer shows up on scene and tasers are drawn.

Now, with all of that said I could have backed out of the scene, but the door was to my back and there was a chance an officer could have gotten the snot beat out of him. Did I do the "correct" thing by positioning myself? No. Did I do what I felt would protect my officer that already had his hands full? Absolutely. Would I change anything about the run now? Only having SO removed before hand. Aside from that, I would have done everything the same way.

Scenes that are "secure" do not always stay secure. I could tell you a handful of stories, as I'm sure you could as well, where a secure scene went unsecured in a matter of less than a minute.

 

[stephen87]

The easiest answer is that the scene was reported secure, but was not actually secure. This follows the thinking that the person is the weapon, and the gun/knife/chair/lamp, etc. is just a tool. There was still a weapon, the SO, there. And yes, I can tell you a couple of stories, too, most of which worked out OK, thank you God.

I do see your point that a secured scene is rarely actually secure. Often, that's because they're simply more secure than they were before. Turn that around, though, such that you're working on the dude needing narcan and the SO, standing behind, sees an opportunity, and grabs *your* gun. Complicating that would be if you were in the middle of starting an IV, and just for grins, let's say it's a difficult IV at that. Armchair quarterbacking, and not in the middle of it, the answer is obvious: Screw the IV! I know when I get focused on getting one in, though, any interruption of the process throws me a little bit off. I know I'm not the only one who does that. Training, training, training is the answer, and in the case of the scene you described, probably having at least one officer on over-watch would have been a good choice. 20/20 hindsight, of course.

Good job on your call.

Blessings,
Bill

Absolutely. My recommendation for those wishing to carry in our line of work, unfortunately is deep concealment. It's a slow draw absolutely, most of the time though, we're in a position that wouldn't look too unnatural to draw from. Ankle holsters immediately come to mind. If you can conceal in a tech pocket, which I cannot comfortably, that would work as well.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

We disagree...so?

Yep, we disagree. But you still haven't answered any questions. Do you have the right to tell people what they may or may not do on your property, or may or may not possess? Do you have the right to tell let's say Mommies demanding action that they can't set up a booth on your front yard? They are practicing a Constitutionally protected right. How about are you required to let a satanic church hold services on your front lawn? Again a protected right. Do you support stripping others of their right to determine what goes on on their property?

In regards to free speech, what difference do you see in your point of view that "But when, or if, it becomes profane or filthy, then it`s an assault, and must be stopped." And what this BAMN leader states? [video=youtube;5nToOcylx84]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nToOcylx84[/video] How do you intend to stop "profane or filthy" speech?

 

[SMiller]

Not that easy. Here's a run I was on less than a month ago.

EMS responding to 123 XY St for possible overdose. Standby until scene is secure. EMS en route. While En route EMS was advised the scene is secure. We walk in and patient is lying on the floor, unresponsive, apneic. We bag, throw in an NPA, attempt a couple of linea. Eventually we give IM Narcan. Significant other is on scene and is calm up until this point. Patient Sita up and starts fighting. I, along with 3 firefighters and my partner, put the patient back on the floor. Significant other runs across the room, spring boards over my back, hands on me and everything. I flip around on SO. Patient uses that advantage and jumps up. Runs to the corner with one officer, starts throwing stuff. So is yelling at the officer, who has his back to them. The other officer on scene never even bats an eye. I step in between the first officer and the SO because of the SO's posture and the fact that first officer has his back to them and second officer is standing around. Eventually, a third officer shows up on scene and tasers are drawn.

Now, with all of that said I could have backed out of the scene, but the door was to my back and there was a chance an officer could have gotten the snot beat out of him. Did I do the "correct" thing by positioning myself? No. Did I do what I felt would protect my officer that already had his hands full? Absolutely. Would I change anything about the run now? Only having SO removed before hand. Aside from that, I would have done everything the same way.

Scenes that are "secure" do not always stay secure. I could tell you a handful of stories, as I'm sure you could as well, where a secure scene went unsecured in a matter of less than a minute.

The lesson here is to give less narcan, we want the patient alive, not fighting...

People have no idea how many patients want nothing more than to kill or hurt you. When you are in the back of the ambulance by yourself things can go south fast.

 

[rhino]

The lesson here is to give less narcan, we want the patient alive, not fighting...

People have no idea how many patients want nothing more than to kill or hurt you. When you are in the back of the ambulance by yourself things can go south fast.

Can you adjust the dose for the Narcan that is carried by non-Paramedics? I haven't seen it, but I assumed it was some kind of fixed dose autoinjector type of deal.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Depends on who the employer is. His business, his rules. Govt employees, case by case, with clear limitations on scope of use (i.e. defense of self and/or patients)

 

[SMiller]

Can you adjust the dose for the Narcan that is carried by non-Paramedics? I haven't seen it, but I assumed it was some kind of fixed dose autoinjector type of deal.

His partner gave it via IV.

Yes you can regulate how much you give someone, you do not have to squeeze the entire tube into them. The hard part is there is a delay once you give it to the patient so unless you are a active working EMS you are not going to have a idea on how much to give so you might as well give them the entire tube and continue working on airway, just be aware when someone wakes up from unconscious it is not always pretty. When someone is knocked out in a fight there is a good chance they will wake up in fight/flight as the last thing they knew they were in a fight, they are going to be swinging long before they realize you are EMS/LEO.

 

[rhino]

His partner gave it via IV.

Yes you can regulate how much you give someone, you do not have to squeeze the entire tube into them. The hard part is there is a delay once you give it to the patient so unless you are a active working EMS you are not going to have a idea on how much to give so you might as well give them the entire tube and continue working on airway, just be aware when someone wakes up from unconscious it is not always pretty. When someone is knocked out in a fight there is a good chance they will wake up in fight/flight as the last thing they knew they were in a fight, they are going to be swinging long before they realize you are EMS/LEO.

I must have misread . . . I thought it said "IM," not IV. Sorry!

 

[stephen87]

His partner gave it via IV.

Yes you can regulate how much you give someone, you do not have to squeeze the entire tube into them. The hard part is there is a delay once you give it to the patient so unless you are a active working EMS you are not going to have a idea on how much to give so you might as well give them the entire tube and continue working on airway, just be aware when someone wakes up from unconscious it is not always pretty. When someone is knocked out in a fight there is a good chance they will wake up in fight/flight as the last thing they knew they were in a fight, they are going to be swinging long before they realize you are EMS/LEO.

Negative. My partner gave 1 IM. We have a rule on our truck, just enough to get them breathing. I have no clue who gave Narcan before we got there, I assume the officer gave a full 2MG and it kicked in once the patient started breathing.

 

[stephen87]

I must have misread . . . I thought it said "IM," not IV. Sorry!

Yes. We did give IM. Out officers carry abbojects that they attach to the atomizer. They can give a portion, however most give it all.

 

[10mmMarc]

Sure they should, they have a good chance of being on the scene before LEO arrives, they go into sketchy neighborhoods for their job, the company they work for does not provide security for them while they are on the job, so they are responsible for their own safety.
I can understand (may not agree with it) but I can understand a company saying no firearms on the property , if you work on premise, but I work off site most of the time and travel, and my opinion is if I am legal to carry I should be allowed to.
I think most companies will say no and give a reason of liability, to deny you the right to carry
but my stance is don't ask don't tell, if I need to use it and get fired for it, I can always find another job.
company policy isn't law

 

[SMiller]

Yes. We did give IM. Out officers carry abbojects that they attach to the atomizer. They can give a portion, however most give it all.

I just assumed IV, could you not get a line? I have seen a lot of blown out junkies.

 

[Joniki]

Yes. We did give IM. Out officers carry abbojects that they attach to the atomizer. They can give a portion, however most give it all.

??? An atomizer is for nasal Narcan. As in MAD...