Sight Radius- What role does it really play in a defensive pistol?

[rockhopper46038]

I've got a couple Fastfires around on plinking guns and they work fine. I'm still not as quick picking up the dot as I am picking up a sight pictures from irons, but that probably is because I don't use the Fastfired for anything other than plinking right now. I've seen a lot of guys at FNS tilting their hands around trying to bring the dot up in their screen, and I've just not considered it much. I'd be willing to invest and get a top of the line red dot if I think it would be a better solution, so maybe I better try getting more proficient with seeing the dot. They still seem pretty big for use on a concealed EDC, but I might not be looking at the right ones and/or the right mounting method.

 

[iChokePeople]

I've got a couple Fastfires around on plinking guns and they work fine. I'm still not as quick picking up the dot as I am picking up a sight pictures from irons, but that probably is because I don't use the Fastfired for anything other than plinking right now. I've seen a lot of guys at FNS tilting their hands around trying to bring the dot up in their screen, and I've just not considered it much. I'd be willing to invest and get a top of the line red dot if I think it would be a better solution, so maybe I better try getting more proficient with seeing the dot. They still seem pretty big for use on a concealed EDC, but I might not be looking at the right ones and/or the right mounting method.

I struggled with this at first. I really got frustrated with trying to find the dot, and almost gave up on it. Then a wise [old] instructor reminded me over and over to find the SIGHTS, just like always, and the dot would just be there. It was that advice and a whole bunch of reps with a new platform that got me over the hump. One problem I was having was that I'd done thousands of reps, over the years, presenting a 1911. My first pistol RDS was on a glock. My wrist angle was a little off. If I'd been looking for SIGHTS, my eyes would have picked up that tiny difference immediately and shifted, but since I was looking for the DOT, that tiny difference still put the dot out of my field of view, if that makes sense. I think if my first RDS experience had been on a platform on which my presentation was better, more precise, I wouldn't have struggled so much.

Once I started just looking for the sights, and getting lots of reps with the Glock so that I was presenting the gun at the correct angle/aiming point for the Glock, it all came together quickly. I had a relapse recently when, for the first time, I tried to do it with gloves at a low-light/cold-weather class. I never wear gloves. I've never worked getting a good firing grip, let alone a good presentation, and the gloves made just enough difference that I was struggling again. Add to that the fact that I was shooting one-handed while trying to manipulate an off-gun light with the other hand... I ditched the gloves for the rest of the class. I *might* work with them again, or find some different gloves with less padding in the palm or something, but I really just don't wear gloves. Anyway, that was kind of a topic veer, but in an attempt to illustrate the issue in question.

Make sense?

ETA: The same "qualities" that were causing me extra trouble can be an advantage -- with a red dot (or a laser), you can notice things that are very difficult to notice with irons. A trigger issue becomes more obvious, for example, because it's much easier to see small movements (or at least for MY old eyes...)

 

[rockhopper46038]

^^^That absolutely makes sense.

 

[iChokePeople]

How does a rds on a handgun compare to a laser, like Crimson Trace grips?

This is an interesting question, but I'm not sure how to answer it other than the completely useless "they're different"... I can see having both. I don't, but I can see it. For me, the time a laser is great is when you're shooting from a weird position in which lining your eyes up behind the sight(s) isn't feasible. A dot does not give you that ability. It doesn't project anything on the target and you still have to be lined up behind the pistol.

I'm interested in seeing how some of the smarter guys answer this question and compare the two.

 

[SmileDocHill]

I used to love the idea of a red dot sight on my handgun I used one on a coldish and rainy day once and between the fog in the rain I couldn't see through it so I couldn't use the iron sights either.

 

[rockhopper46038]

I used to love the idea of a red dot sight on my handgun I used one on a coldish and rainy day once and between the fog in the rain I couldn't see through it so I couldn't use the iron sights either.

Yeesh! Good to know! Weather sure can teach you things. I abandoned a gun grease I had been quite partial too when I found that extremely cold weather (but weather that can be expected to occur around here) caused it to stiffen up enough that I could visibly see my slide returning to battery.

 

[rhino]

How does a rds on a handgun compare to a laser, like Crimson Trace grips?

Once you get the hang of it, it should be significantly faster. The key is that the dot is in exactly the same place relative to the gun all the time. Once you learn how to index on the sight, it's the same every time you put it in front of your face.

With a laser, you have to look for the for the reflection on the target.

Advantage of the red dot is that it's faster and predictable. Advantage of the laser is that you don't have to have the gun at eye level to use it effectively.

 

[chezuki]

I used to love the idea of a red dot sight on my handgun I used one on a coldish and rainy day once and between the fog in the rain I couldn't see through it so I couldn't use the iron sights either.

This. My one experience with a dot on a defensive pistol was Uzi Button's M&P CORE with the RMR at NFA day and it kept fogging up. That was enough to kill any interest I had in them.

 

[iChokePeople]

This. My one experience with a dot on a defensive pistol was Uzi Button's M&P CORE with the RMR at NFA day and it kept fogging up. That was enough to kill any interest I had in them.

Why on earth would you get in a gunfight when it's raining?! Be civilized.

I've used mine in rain and snow and haven't had that problem, but I'm sure I will at some point with the wrong conditions.

 

[cedartop]

Why on earth would you get in a gunfight when it's raining?! Be civilized.

I've used mine in rain and snow and haven't had that problem, but I'm sure I will at some point with the wrong conditions.

Right, I am not saying it doesn't happen but mine has been an EDC for what, 3 years or so now and I have never had that problem. It has got wet of course but never fogged up. This, and the need to be lined up in the right spot without the extra points of contact like on a rifle are some of the main drawbacks to a RDS on a handgun.

 

[cedartop]

How does a rds on a handgun compare to a laser, like Crimson Trace grips?

Not sure how to answer that because I am not exactly sure what you are asking. Think of the RDS as just a different form of sights, so really completely different than a laser. Just like for most people an optic on a rifle is their primary aiming system, but they still run a laser, the same can be done on a handgun but I think you see it less often. My problem with lasers are they they are good for some situations but almost worthless in others so I wouldn't want to train myself to make it my primary aiming system on a DEFENSIVE weapon.

 

[Wabatuckian]

i understand the notion of the threes, but what if "your fight" is NOT like that? What if your fight is more like the one esrice created a while back when evaluating his choices? What if your fight is a 50-yard shot at a partially obscured target that/who is very close to your child?

My concern is not the pistol or the sights, but rather the ability.

15 yards, four shots in less than an inch from a modified Weaver stance. That would be about 3" at fifty yards.

The fifth shot is in the lower right hand corner. That was me and I knew it was me.

The law of averages does not favor a long-distance fight, but neither does it favor someone who doesn't practice enough (me). That flier would have been way off at 50 yards.

Otherwise, my thoughts are simple: Aim at the center of the largest part of the critter that presents a target, and press the trigger.

Josh

 

[Wabatuckian]

Agreed on the unsighted fire. Again, it boils down to "see what you need to see."

If you train to use your sights, you will use your sights whenever it's possible to raise the gun to eye level.

If someone chooses to not train to use their sights and accepts the paradigm that they can't use their sights under stress for whatever reason, that person will never use their sights. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy in some cases.

Re: red dots mounted on carry guns ...

Make sure you get one that is metal and sturdy! If you need to rack the slide quickly with one hand, that RDS makes a great tool for doing so . . . unless it's made of plastic.

Red dots are superior to iron sights for actual shooting. Regardless of personal preferences, opinions, and prejudices, that is an objective fact. If you can afford to have one mounted low on the slide like is becoming more common, it makes a good tool a better tool. You lose nothing and gain much. I haven't done it yet because of $$$ and time to devote to the project, but I will some day.

And the red dot makes sight radius issues moot!

Rhino,

I'd like to define sighted fire, please.

To me, sighted fire can be a full sight picture, a flash sight picture, and indexing the sights.

Non-sighted fire is shooting from a position where the sights are totally outside of the shooter's field of vision, usually in the range in which powder burns and/or tattooing occur.

Is this your definition as well?

Josh

 

[iChokePeople]

Oy.

ETA: OK, now I have a keyboard and can be a little more clear...

Gear vs. skill: Agree, skill > gear, but giving up a gear advantage for no reason is silly. The pistol and the sights DO matter. The ammunition matters. At 3 feet? No, not so much. If you accept that your fight is at that distance and don't intend to try to be prepared for a 50 yard shot (for example), then do what you think's best. All other things being equal, the gun with the longer sight radius (and corresponding barrel, generally...) will provide better results at 50 yards, assuming you're using the sights. Yes, you could be so damn good that you can put 5 on a quarter at 100 with either gun (coughcough) or you could suck so much that the difference is moot, but I'm throwing out those extremes. If you're happy with your shooting, hold onto what you're doing.

15 yard group:50 yard group -- Might SOUND nice, but unless you're shooting in a vacuum (and maybe not even then... rhino?), your results will not be linear. Do you also think you'll shoot a 6" group at 100 and a 12" group at 200? Go out and shoot the esrice scenario at 50 and see how you do. And do it the way he did, not with slow, aimed, calm fire.

If you believe you're "good enough" for your standards, kudos to you, you win. Me, I can't imagine ever thinking I'm "good enough", or even "good enough" to willingly give up any advantage I can get, whether it's a half inch of sight radius, a more consistent load, a red dot sight, a little better trigger, or a whole bunch more practice. And if I can find a way to cheat, I'll do that, too.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Not sure how to answer that because I am not exactly sure what you are asking. Think of the RDS as just a different form of sights, so really completely different than a laser. Just like for most people an optic on a rifle is their primary aiming system, but they still run a laser, the same can be done on a handgun but I think you see it less often. My problem with lasers are they they are good for some situations but almost worthless in others so I wouldn't want to train myself to make it my primary aiming system on a DEFENSIVE weapon.

I was on my phone, so brevity is required for me to keep my sanity with autocorrect and little keys on a screen.

Anyway,

How would it compare as far as accuracy, time for first shot, and time for followup shots at, say 7 yards, assuming all other variables are the same. How easy is it to "get used to" vs a laser. That sort of thing.

I've used laser grips, and found the transition from laser to irons or vice versa pretty easy. Like you say as far as finding the sights to see the dot, my laser on a gov't sized .45 was the same. The laser was set so that it was directly on top of the front sight post at 25y, which gave me +/- 1" for 50y, plus the ability to fire more effectively from retention, etc. How easy is it to transition from an RDS to irons, and how much is the +/- at a given range?

 

[Wabatuckian]

Oy.

ETA: OK, now I have a keyboard and can be a little more clear...

Gear vs. skill: Agree, skill > gear, but giving up a gear advantage for no reason is silly. The pistol and the sights DO matter. The ammunition matters. At 3 feet? No, not so much. If you accept that your fight is at that distance and don't intend to try to be prepared for a 50 yard shot (for example), then do what you think's best. All other things being equal, the gun with the longer sight radius (and corresponding barrel, generally...) will provide better results at 50 yards, assuming you're using the sights. Yes, you could be so damn good that you can put 5 on a quarter at 100 with either gun (coughcough) or you could suck so much that the difference is moot, but I'm throwing out those extremes. If you're happy with your shooting, hold onto what you're doing.

15 yard group:50 yard group -- Might SOUND nice, but unless you're shooting in a vacuum (and maybe not even then... rhino?), your results will not be linear. Do you also think you'll shoot a 6" group at 100 and a 12" group at 200? Go out and shoot the esrice scenario at 50 and see how you do. And do it the way he did, not with slow, aimed, calm fire.

If you believe you're "good enough" for your standards, kudos to you, you win. Me, I can't imagine ever thinking I'm "good enough", or even "good enough" to willingly give up any advantage I can get, whether it's a half inch of sight radius, a more consistent load, a red dot sight, a little better trigger, or a whole bunch more practice. And if I can find a way to cheat, I'll do that, too.

I agree with you 100%. One reason I said

The fifth shot is in the lower right hand corner. That was me and I knew it was me.

The law of averages does not favor a long-distance fight, but neither does it favor someone who doesn't practice enough (me). That flier would have been way off at 50 yards.

is because though I shoot enough to make nice little groups like that, it's not good enough.

The focal point in the photo, that tight group, is nice. It shows the mechanical accuracy of the pistol.

The flier and the fact that the group is split show that I am still not good enough.

I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression.

Josh

 

[bwframe]

[video=youtube;TvrGAmfjquo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvrGAmfjquo[/video]

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Wait, you have to turn it on? It doesn't just stay on like the ACOG with a tritium vial or upon grip like a Crimson Trace grip?

 

[Denny347]

Wait, you have to turn it on? It doesn't just stay on like the ACOG with a tritium vial or upon grip like a Crimson Trace grip?

Hmmm, that could be a problem.

 

[Birds Away]

Hmmm, that could be a problem.

That's exactly what has me worried. I am not a great shooter and don't pretend to be. I need every advantage I can get. But I don't want to bring a gun up and have to remember the steps to make it work. Kinda ruins the speed advantage of a red dot.