sitting VS kneeling

[42769vette]

Ive been making it a point to shoot atleast couple AQT's a day for the last couple weeks. My problem has been getting 10 shots off in stage 2. I can get into sitting, and have good accuracy there, but it takes me to long to do it to get all my shots off.

Today I tried it kneeling and Im not quite as accurate, and I still rushed 1 shot on my best AQT, but I got all 10 off for a 44 or 45 point score.

So my question is am I better served to make myself get faster at sitting, or start to work on kneeling more.

I still need to do pratice standing a good bit, and my scores havent going up a ton, but my consistancy has gotten alot better in just 2 weeks of pratice. Here is my best target of the day that was shot kneeling.

 

[giovani]

I am a fan of kneeling , I just can't seem to find a goo d way of sitting that feels as natural as kneeling.

Also I can get into kneeling faster for the AQT.

only been to one Appleseed and had a lever action tube fed gun with no strap and a 2x handgun scope.

when I do the next one I will be equipped better.

 

[Rayne]

A hint I learned at one of my latest Appleseeds was not to spend much time on your first two shots, because you use up too much of your time verifying your NPOA (natural point of aim) you get off two shots and then it's a mag change and reverifying your NPOA again before continueing.. The suggestion was to not check your NPOA but briefly on your first two shots and then after the mag change, verify your NPOA and complete the course of fire. Shifting from one target to the next doesn't disturb your NPOA as much as a mag change does in some opinions.

I'm not sure how other instructor's will feel about this advice, but it helped me out. What is your problem with your sitting position? Where do you feel like you are losing the most time?

By the way, very nice looking groups on that AQT! And if I'm scoring it correctly it looks like a 239 score.

 

[42769vette]

What is your problem with your sitting position? Where do you feel like you are losing the most time?

During prep I get my feet where I want them for my NPOA then stand straight up without moving my feet. When the buzzer goes off I sit down as fast as I can, but it seams I always have to adjust my NPOA before firing. With the kneeling it seems I can get down faster, and be closer to my NPOA. I can also make small adjustments faster because Im not moving my butt (Its a slow process moving a butt for us fat folks)

When I was in typing class at school I could hunt and peck the letters alot faster than putting my hands on home row and typing right, but the teachers made us stay on home row with the promise that that it would be faster in the long run and they were right. I guess im wanting to make sure I should not continue using 100% of my pratice time (dedicated to stage 2) on sitting for the same reason. If in the long run Ill be happy I stuck with sitting that's what I'm going to do.

 

[hooky]

That was the stage that gave (gives) me fits too. Two things helped me a lot. I take shallower breaths here than on the other stages and the rate of fire naturally increases. The other is I always get my NPOA squared away as best as I can and lay a mag where the outside of each foot goes and use a spent case or a pebble to mark where I'm sitting. I want to look down at my zipper and just barely see it. Just practicing getting into a consistent seated position is a big help too. I tried to take as many of the variables out as I could.

 

[grunt soldier]

The seated position is a better more stable position. If you can get into it and accurately shoot from it and not in pain then you should continue to do it IMO. Some people's sitting position is as stable as their prone. Look at your prone groups. Just imagine doing that from the seated.

With practice you will get faster and more accurate. However your kneeling groups are very solid.

 

[Twangbanger]

I think finding whichever position is the steadiest, combined with staying ON the trigger, are the biggies that will allow you to get the shots off.


One thing a shoot boss said, which stuck with me, is that riflemen LOVE THE GROUND. Everything that gets you closer in contact with the ground, is generally a good thing. I know 3-position and International style shooting require you to shoot from kneeling, but most highpower guys will tell you it's inferior and sitting should be used if allowed. Again, the speed of getting into position is a minor consideration, vs. being steady and staying on the trigger. I would gladly take a position that takes a bit longer to get into, in exchange for more steadiness, because when that rifle settles down nice every time, those shots will just keep coming without you having to work at it. Never use a position that requires you to fight to regain POA between shots. And I never shoot as steady in kneeling as with sitting. Sitting feels like it's halfway to being prone, in terms of steadiness...kneeling feels like it's halfway to standing offhand, to me.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I only like kneeling when they have those nice padded fold-down attachments on the back of the pew!

 

[sloughfoot]

Learn to shoot it sitting. Keep working on it. Work on a solid position. And accurate speed from the sitting position.

If your shooting needs to be for real, later sometime, maybe, kneeling will work for snap shots. But you will have the basis of the solid sitting position and sight picture to work from.

I am asking you to trust me on this. I know it to be true.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

"I have what doctors call a little bit of a weight problem..." Haha...I have started to incorporate sitting specific stretches that have helped me be able to get my elbows properly placed and my torso lower. I watched some videos on different typed of sitting positions and how to adjust my NPOA. I think the key is to really get things down in your prep period and then mark your spot where your crotch would end up when you sit (I learned this from a video and can't remember who it was). Also, pulling my feet in to me has been pretty helpful or keeping my feet extended instead of ending up in the middle where there is no support for your legs and your elbows end up supported by "floating" legs.

The biggest improvements in my positions have come from the purposeful dry fire time I am doing. That has gone far to help me solidify and learn a good position for me while not worrying about pulling the trigger. I can notice the steadiness improving in my KD shooting and dry fire time as my time invested continues.

The sitting position is a position that allows me set up for a shot on soybean eating vermin and clear vegetation that would otherwise impede a prone position. Contrary to popular opinion there is real world application to the position and that is a minor example of one.

 

[ol' Huff]

I am going to do a video response to this post. It may be Sunday before I get a chance to film anything. thee are a couple of things that need addressing, both philosophically and technically.

 

[Rayne]

 

[Twangbanger]

"Mr. Awesome" getting philosophical with a video camera involved...(George C. Scott, prepare to be schooled).

 

[Hop]

I tend to cross my feet as I start sitting. I don't wait until I hit the ground. If I am feeling rushed... like a mag problem has happened, I can "catch up" by not doing another breath. If I shoot and after recoil the sights fall back on NPOA I take another shot. I'm not sure what the instructors would say but if I don't need the air then why take the breath. Seated stage at a KD: AppleseedKD-Redbrush 001 - YouTube

 

[yellowhousejake]

I take my time and I generally get all ten shots off. I drop to seated pretty quickly, but once my fanny hits the ground I scoot around and get in place, take a deep breath, then verify my NPOA.

Then I trust it.

Two quick shots, mag change and three more shots. Shift and verify. When I have it, mostly first try, I trust it and run the mag dry.

I breath at least every other shot but my breaths are shallow, I work the bolt fast and hard from much practice. With an auto I cycle the trigger almost continuously. Exhale and squeeze, inhale and release, I only hold it at the end for less than half a second. I am prob shooting one shot per second in rapid fire.

It required only that I practice indoors every night at first. The practice is just the getting down and getting the first NPOA done. I practice it maybe five times and then quit. After a month of that it became second nature and now I do not even think about it.

Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

YHJ

 

[dnurk]

For me as well.....

 

[cwillour]

I knelt only because I failed to start stretching early enough to allow me to find a sitting position that I could both get into readily and maintain without muscle strain. I really believe in practicing both, but keeping the emphasis on sitting as it will typically provide increased stability.

While I like the sitting position for focusing on marksmanship, I do wonder about the actual applications of the position outside of hunting and target shooting. The sitting position is definitely stable, but the kneeling position would seem to have a sizable advantage where there may be very little time to prep a shot or where the ability to get up and move remains critical. While I am hardly a scholar, in watching actual WWII combat footage in documentaries I recall seeing quite a few folks dropping to the kneeling and prone positions in fire-fights, but I cannot recall ever seeing footage of a soldier moving to a sitting position while under fire.

BTW, if somebody does recall seeing the sitting position in any live-footage documentary, please let me know as I actually spent some time watching my dad's NatGeo DVDs looking for it a while back (he needed some assistance while recovering from a surgery, so I believe we watched 1 or 2 different series.)

 

[dnurk]

Sitting position is more practical in most hunting situations. I took what I learned in a shoot last Fall and applied it while hunting coyotes in South Dakota last Fall. Did not need shooting sticks or a rest to shoot comfortably out to 200 yards with accurate fire. Kneeing might be good for snap shots but it is hard to remain steady for longer periods of time while waiting

 

[sloughfoot]

I take my time and I generally get all ten shots off. I drop to seated pretty quickly, but once my fanny hits the ground I scoot around and get in place, take a deep breath, then verify my NPOA.

Then I trust it.

Two quick shots, mag change and three more shots. Shift and verify. When I have it, mostly first try, I trust it and run the mag dry.

I breath at least every other shot but my breaths are shallow, I work the bolt fast and hard from much practice. With an auto I cycle the trigger almost continuously. Exhale and squeeze, inhale and release, I only hold it at the end for less than half a second. I am prob shooting one shot per second in rapid fire.

It required only that I practice indoors every night at first. The practice is just the getting down and getting the first NPOA done. I practice it maybe five times and then quit. After a month of that it became second nature and now I do not even think about it.

Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

YHJ

I have seen you shoot. I have seen your targets. You and I can certainly do this with a 22 rimfire. However, since shooting the 22 rimfire is practice for the centerfire battle rifle, consider that you might be shortchanging yourself by shooting this fast because the 22 cartridge lets you.

Consider one shot every 4 seconds. Even with the 22. Cadence is important too. A shot every 4 seconds is rifleman's speed with a battle rifle. This allows the shot to go off, follow through on the shot, breath in while you work the bolt and exhale as the sight comes back up to the target. The trigger slack is already taken up and when you are relaxed into the sling again, the hammer falls and it starts over again.

If you were standing next to me while I was shooting a rapid fire string, you would be able to hear me breathing. Or at least the exhale. I am very loud when exhaling. I am loud to remind myself to breath.

I know I am preaching to the choir. You know all this YHJ. I am putting this out for all those reading this that might wonder why they can't hit anything at one shot per second with a centerfire rifle..that is very fast shooting.

For those of you that don't know me, I am 5' 11" and 295 lbs. I have a very large stomach muscle. I have been shooting rifles in the sitting since I was 19 and 155 lbs. You can stretch your back to get ready for the sitting position by getting off your easy chair and getting down onto the floor in front of the tube and stretching every night. I can get down into a very low and solid position. My elbows almost touch the ground. I just have difficulty standing up again. Also, make sure there is no tension in your gut muscles when exhaling for the shot. The tension changes your NPOA. it also does not allow full exhalation to establish your vertical NPOA.

Everybody knows that horizontal NPOA is controlled by your butt angle to the target and vertical NPOA is controlled by how much breath you let out, right?

The orange hat is getting dusty. I really need to get back in the game with you guys. The clock continues to click. I know a really nice range in Harlan that is way underutilized..........

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Here's some real world images of sitting, mind you snipers in mostly static positions:
http://www.popsci.com/files/imageca...ticles/800px-Army_sniper_team_Afghanistan.jpg
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...C08yiJuT8Tk1rZtjUHK-HRKfSJxbJyhppZ7W3yOt0S6pw
http://row.wikispaces.com/file/view/1133204291_334274af7c.jpg/126779173/1133204291_334274af7c.

Quite a different variety of positions but none the less, making it work.